Actual Armed Citizens

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

I realized that some of you don't have a personal picture of where a gun fits in self-defense. And I dare you to read all these and not feel relieved for the victims. REAL victims - REAL crime. Not a mental incapacity due to their politics.

NOTE TO DAVE: Read the 2 incidents that happened at CHURCH. I did not dig those out specially for you..

I know these are old -- I clipped them back when I was on another board. But the series is still published monthly. Also note that these are just from a couple months in 1995 and 1996. They represent 100s of THOUSANDS of documented deterrent efforts of normal citizens to crime..

************************************************** ********

So you say say some folks got struck by lightening, some folks around here it happened to too.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Zeke

use it as a metallic phallus.

this is the real role of guns in this country

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Combwork

That change makes sense. If I read you right, the 'Castle' law means that the onus is on the intruder to prove they were not a threat. Very difficult proving a negative, especially before an unsympathetic jury.

I've been to the USA three times; once on business and twice on holiday. Maybe this is an exaggeration, or perhaps specific to Florida but I was told that unless it was an emergency, like your wife going into labor, you just don't walk up to a strangers front door in the dark.

Except our Constitution requires us to assume innocence, until the accused is proven guilty. It also guarantees the accused "due process". This is the conundrum with the "Castle Law" that keeps other states from adopting it. It allows the citizen to instantly become judge, jury and executioner. Many believe it to be unconstitutional. A political hot potato here, because the same folks who favor the "Castle Laws" usually also fancy themselves to be "constitutionalists" (Well, only when it suits them, I'd have to say.).


The bolded sentence, I believe, would be an exaggeration. Most likely you would simply be ignored if the homeowner doesn't want to answer.

The Chestnut Tree thing? Yeah, that's absurd.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

The Constitution applies to the government. So if someone swings on me, and I hit them back, I've deprived them of 'due process'?? Lordy lordy.

Comb, like I suspect anywhere there's places you don't want to go in the daytime! But if you came to my door at night and knocked I would answer, however suspiciously

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

The Constitution applies to the government. So if someone swings on me, and I hit them back, I've deprived them of 'due process'?? Lordy lordy.

Comb, like I suspect anywhere there's places you don't want to go in the daytime! But if you came to my door at night and knocked I would answer, however suspiciously

Pete

NO! The constitution applies to everyone.

Ever served on jury duty, Pete? You are reminded a zillion times that you are to assume innocence. Even when you invoke the "Castle Law", the courts and therefore "the government", are going to get involved. I guarantee, if you shoot someone for whatever reason there will be a trial.

Watch what happens if the court decides you did not have just cause, even in your "Castle Law" state.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

So, what about my example?

And dead men tell no tales. Remember, the burden of proof is on THEM. And they are in my house without permission.

Also, because of Castle law they can't even sue over civil rights

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

So, what about my example?

And dead men tell no tales. Remember, the burden of proof is on THEM. And they are in my house without permission.

Also, because of Castle law they can't even sue over civil rights

Pete

Not so. In most states, it was with the shooter. Nowadays, it's shifting to the prosecutor in many states, including Ohio. In no state that I'm aware of does it rest with the intruder.

[piece-itpete]

The Castle laws shift the burden of proof proof from the homeowner to the intruder. I believe the phrase is the homeowner has a 'presumption of innocence'.

So it's NOT 'bulletproof' [edit: what I mean is, the intruder can make a case]

Pete

[flacaltenn]

BlueStreak:

I guarantee, if you shoot someone for whatever reason there will be a trial.

Naw.. Not really.. Law enforcement OFTEN decides not to prosecute in straight cases of self-defense. They'll investigate, but charges need not and are not often filed.. In fact, many citizens get an "atta boy" from the city..

NoOneReal:

So you say say some folks got struck by lightening, some folks around here it happened to too.

I know those are anectodal stories, I've got a thousand more if you enjoyed them. Pete could kick in a couple thousand I bet from his "reading material". But the crux of the matter are the DOJ numbers that I posted. Did you see them???

The 86,000 defenses with a gun are only the police reported ones. Easily more than twice that per year according to sources. MANY more incidents didn't even result in a shot fired. So the score really is:

Guns Used in defense of self and property: 172,000/year
Struck and Killed by Lightning in the US: ~65/year (source below)
Struck by Lightning in the US: 172/year (my guess from deaths)

So officially NoOneReal -- Protecting yourself, your family, and others with a gun happens roughly a 1000 times more often..


http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/jeh5_05_45-50.pdf

[flacaltenn]

Guys:

There was just this week one HORRENDOUS case of gun defense gone bad. A pharmacist witnessed 2 young men holding guns to the heads of his employees. Went to get his gun and took a couple shots at the robbers..

One hit the floor, the other fled. The pharmacist dragged him off security camera and pumped 5 more rounds into the guy off camera. Told police he was STILL threatened by the perp. Prosecution and jury didn't buy it. Pharmacist is now serving time.

JUSTLY serving time IMO.. HOWEVER--- I've got at least 5 stories I can remember where trained officers ended up unloading into disabled perps. (Bart Station cop, NYC "amadillo??", ect) So this ain't just a matter of training and discipline. It's primal instinct when you're defending stuff from criminals..

It's not pretty, but neither is a wheel-chair bound granny with a bashed in head...