They're all Thugs

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

What's the standard on fear?

The same as it is for anything in a court of law, the "reasonable person" standard.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The same as it is for anything in a court of law, the "reasonable person" standard.

Mere hand-waving. We're talking about people going to jail, or getting shot dead. We need a real, defined standard here. A reasonable person would ... what? Would feel so scared their bowels let loose? Would feel 50% of 'bowels let loose?' Would feel the slightest discernible level of apprehension? What?

[Tom Joad]

I shouldn't have titled this "They're all Thugs".

I was just trolling Zeke with that because I don't like him.

I don't have many encounters with Police because I am very law abiding and don't go looking for trouble. Most of the Police I have encountered have been fine, but there have been a few assholes. In those cases I have just remained calm and not given them an excuse to escalate.

But there is no doubt that this Cop was in the wrong.

You don't go threatening to shoot people in the head for a minor traffic violation.

This guy is not in control of his emotions and he is not fit to be out on the street carrying a gun.

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Mere hand-waving. Where talking about people going to jail, or getting shot dead. We need a real, defined standard here. A reasonable person would ... what? Would feel so scared their bowels let loose? Would feel 50% of 'bowels let loose?' Would feel the slightest discernable level of apprehension? What?

This has gone too far to the right literally and figuratively. This will take some time to move back to the center. Citizen's video cannot be stopped. More and more law enforcements will be forced into wearing lapel and dashboard cameras. Technology will continue to improve as costs keep coming down. No one can stop it, this is too late.

Eventually cities will tire paying out victim compensations. Lots of lawyers out there circling PD for possible damage lawsuits, too much money to be had so easily. This cannot be stopped either. Lawyer work for money first and upholding the law second.

As usual in a capitalist society, it is usually money that brings about a semblance of balance. A definition of fear will lead to more talk but little action.

[donquixote99]

My point is that the 'fear' standard is subjective, and basically ridiculous, except that the consequences are so terrible.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

My point is that the 'fear' standard is subjective, and basically ridiculous, except that the consequences are so terrible.

Subjective?

Sure.

But I trust a P.O.S.T. certified, trained, observant and able to articulate law enforcement officer infinitely more than John Q.

You side with the law breaker.

No issue beyond one of us is legally right. Morally? Well, if you don't always like the distinction then you get out of law enforcement.

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Subjective?

Sure.

But I trust a P.O.S.T. certified, trained, observant and able to articulate law enforcement officer infinitely more than John Q.

You side with the law breaker.

No issue beyond one of us is legally right. Morally? Well, if you don't always like the distinction then you get out of law enforcement.

Who does the trained, observant, articulate law enforcement work for? Who pays their salaries and upkeep not to mention the all important budget busting 'loaded' pensions? See this is what is reversed and why it is becoming toxic.

In business it is an accepted principle that 'customer is always right', or at least they earn it since they own us.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Subjective?

Sure.

But I trust a P.O.S.T. certified, trained, observant and able to articulate law enforcement officer infinitely more than John Q.

You side with the law breaker.

No issue beyond one of us is legally right. Morally? Well, if you don't always like the distinction then you get out of law enforcement.

It's a matter of whose side you are on? You mean cops, right or wrong, morality be damned? You're saying 'with us or against us?'

I'm hearing 'might makes right.' Law? Law my ass.

You say forget "morally" or get out of law enforcement. You forget that without morality there's nothing to stop you from breaking the law to bits, if you can get away with it.

Apparently, there's more to stop y'all, now that dashcams are showing up everywhere. Apparently y'all are going to have to change your law-breaking ways some.

We had a civilization once, and we can do it again. Join us! It will be better than the way things are, for everyone.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by Zeke

But I trust a P.O.S.T. certified, trained, observant and able to articulate law enforcement officer infinitely more than John Q.

And I would counter that it is not too much to expect that P.O.S.T. certified, trained, observant and able to articulate law enforcement officer who is being paid damned good money plus an excellent fringe benefit package to be able to stay in control of his or her emotions enough not to allow a routine traffic stop to escalate into a violent confrontation.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Subjective?

Sure.

But I trust a P.O.S.T. certified, trained, observant and able to articulate law enforcement officer infinitely more than John Q.

John Q in this video (the dashcam of the OP incident) seems much more trustworthy and articulate than the 'I'm gonna blow a hole in your head' cop. Tell us again how this fellow's training and certifications make him so professional, so in-control, so responsible and "trustworthy."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asnL...ature=youtu.be