Darren Wilson's Side of the Story

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

How would finn manage without ya, eh John?

What I want to find out is how we'd all manage without you?

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

BTW - I find your choice of descriptors as uniquely self-serving. When you're talking about conflict in the middle east it's the Palestinians and the Jews. But when you're called out about your attitudes and maybe not looking so good, suddenly you're all upset and insisting you're talking about Israelis, not Jews. OK...got it.

You're the one who constantly conflates Israelis and Jews, Ike, not me. IIRC, my past comments on Israel, its people and its policies have strictly used the moniker Israelis and not Jews. If this isn't true (though I believe it is), feel free to do a global "search and replace" for me.

You're the one who has characterized my comments on Israel as anti-Semitic, a common tactic of those who find themselves on the losing end of an argument. You're equally quick with the racism card, FWIW. When you're intellectually overmatched (which is a frequent occurrence), you always fall back to the intellectually lazy retorts of anti-Semitism and racism. I don't like games played with trump cards.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

You're the one who constantly conflates Israelis and Jews, Ike, not me. IIRC, my past comments on Israel, its people and its policies have strictly used the moniker Israelis and not Jews. If this isn't true (though I believe it is), feel free to do a global "search and replace" for me.

You're the one who has characterized my comments on Israel as anti-Semitic, a common tactic of those who find themselves on the losing end of an argument. You're equally quick with the racism card, FWIW. When you're intellectually overmatched (which is a frequent occurrence), you always fall back to the intellectually lazy retorts of anti-Semitism and racism. I don't like games played with trump cards.

You can dislike it all you want. When I repeatedly hear the parties in this conflict referred to as "Palestinians and Jews" as by this asshole BBC reporter and his "...Palestinians hugely suffer at Jewish hands...", I know exactly where he's coming from. Replace that with "...Palestinians hugely suffer at Israeli hands...", and although I may object to the one-sidedness of the comment, the latter does not imply what the former implies. And you've used that same language right along, on many occasions, finn. Words mean something. And unless and until you acknowledge it in a way that convinces me that it was unintentional, instead of this persistent defensiveness laden drivel, it's gonna be hard for me to accept.

If you don't give a shit what I'll accept and what I won't, that's fine with me.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

You can dislike it all you want. When I repeatedly hear the parties in this conflict referred to as "Palestinians and Jews" as by this asshole BBC reporter and his "...Palestinians hugely suffer at Jewish hands...", I know exactly where he's coming from.

You're sounding more and more like whell all the time. We goyim are now supposed to apologize for this jerk-off or forever share his guilt.

John

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

And the essence of my post on white guilt is that you're welcome to it. In fact, you're welcome to have a double dose of it to make up for my lack of it. Guilt-tripping ain't my bag, man.

Resistance to manipulative guilt trips is understandable, but it seems also to be an excuse to dismiss all accusations of pervasive racism. People who consider themselves not-a-bit racist nonetheless just don't find the black folks believable, and take the white guy's word for things. That's even when the white guy is, for example, busy falsely accusing 10% of the black population of rural west Texas town of being powder cocaine dealers.

But people don't like feeling guilty, so most of the Tulia folks still think their black neighbors and the outside 'guilt trippers' pulled a fast one. Or that it was all just one guy's fault, and none of their own.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You're sounding more and more like whell all the time. We goyim are now supposed to apologize for this jerk-off or forever share his guilt.

John

Us goyim (I'm a shegetz Irishman, after all), are free to do whatever TF it is we choose to do when faced with what some of us are. We can call it what it is, or we can shrug it off with a sigh, followed by some heavy. My experience however is that when it comes to the state of Istael, my fellow liberals along with the American media persistently lean toward the latter.

[Rajoo]

From Wiki:

The term "Jewish state" has been in common usage in the media since the establishment of Israel, and the term was used interchangeably with Israel. George W. Bush used the term in his speeches and in an exchange of letters with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2004.[6] Obama has also used the phrase, for instance in a speech in September 2010 to the U.N. General Assembly.[7] The Israeli government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has made Palestinian recognition of Israel as a "Jewish state" a precondition in the peace negotiations,[8] as did the government of his successor Benjamin Netanyahu. However, Palestinians regard a "Jewish state" as a trap, a new demand that did not come up during years of negotiations in the 1990s or in peace treaties reached with Egypt and Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization recognized the State of Israel as part of the Oslo Accords in 1993. Palestinians regard acceptance of the demand as giving up the right of return.[9]

So if Israel is known as a Jewish state, why not refer to the people in Israel as Jews?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by BeamOn

So if Israel is known as a Jewish state, why not refer to the people in Israel as Jews?

Officially, Israel is not a Jewish state, never has been. It's a "Jewish state" in the same way that America is a "Christian nation". In both cases the attempt to identify multi-confessional nations in terms of the dominant religion is an attempt on the part of the right wing to establish theocratic rule and to partially or wholly disenfranchise religious minorities.

There is currently an effort to put through the Israeli Knesset a bill which, if passed into law, would officially make Israel "the Nation-State of the Jewish People". It's highly controversial, even among Israeli Jews.

John

[Rajoo]

Thanks for the clarification John.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

You're the one who constantly conflates Israelis and Jews, Ike, not me. IIRC, my past comments on Israel, its people and its policies have strictly used the moniker Israelis and not Jews. If this isn't true (though I believe it is), feel free to do a global "search and replace" for me.

You're the one who has characterized my comments on Israel as anti-Semitic, a common tactic of those who find themselves on the losing end of an argument. You're equally quick with the racism card, FWIW. When you're intellectually overmatched (which is a frequent occurrence), you always fall back to the intellectually lazy retorts of anti-Semitism and racism. I don't like games played with trump cards.

But you do like playing with decks you've stacked or quickly reshuffled.

BTW, the primary reason the Arabs rejected Israeli citizenship in the late 50s was that they knew as Arabs they would never really be Israelis because Muslims can't be Jews.