The logic doesnt add up....

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

We will be missed....

Pete

... if one attributes benevolent motives and positive outcomes (for all involved) for our international entanglements. Consider for a moment Ike's prescient warnings in 1961 about the Military-Industrial Complex:

("In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.")

I'm not certain I'm capable of assigning benign or benevolent motives to many of our foreign endeavours and I'm sure many on the receiving end of them are none too thrilled either. I believe there is a certain amount of patriotic rationalization that goes on when one talks about the positive aspects of our overseas expenditures of blood and treasure.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Believing that, was in response to Pox Americana.

Yeah, caught that. See later post.

I see our murder rate is 1.1 persons - per 100,000 - more than Europes.

The Wikipedia article I referred to has (for 2004) Regional and National figures. Regionally, they have Europe at 5.4 homicides per 100,000 and the North America at 6.5. There's your 1.1 but the figure for North America includes Canada (lower than the US) and Mexico (higher than the US). Irrelevant.

When you look at countries here's what happens. The US is at 5.4 for 2008. The European democracy closest to us is Switzerland at 2.26, about half our rate!

Look where we are in that list. We're flanked by Kenya and Turkey. You comfortable with that? Man, Pete, wake the fuck up!

If we don't need bases in Europe lets close them - now. Billions.

You've completely missed (changed) the point. This started out with you saying the Europeans need us quartering troops on their soil. Now it's the other way around?

And if Japan isn't afraid of China, let'em hang.

Wow! Just..... wow!

Someone will always be on the top of the hill.

Why?

We will be missed....

Why?

John

[Grumpy]

Because.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I'm not certain I'm capable of assigning benign or benevolent motives to many of our foreign endeavours and I'm sure many on the receiving end of them are none too thrilled either. I believe there is a certain amount of patriotic rationalization that goes on when one talks about the positive aspects of our overseas expenditures of blood and treasure.

We can't really presume to divine the motivations behind what our government does, either here or abroad, but we have to be alert to and conscious of the manifest results of what government does.

John

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Because.

Yeah! And your momma wears combat boots!

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

We can't really presume to divine the motivations behind what our government does, either here or abroad ...

... and that's a big problem when a democracy sends its sons and daughters off to war in a foreign land under a myriad of (false) pretenses.

[piece-itpete]

I can't write a book

Our current prosperity, the average person worldwide has never had it so good (including us!).

Why? Someone stabilizes most of the globe and keeps shipping lanes open.

Who? Hint: not Kenya :-)

I have not changed my point. I said Europe gets a free ride on national security. From us. If they don't need us, lets leave and save billions. If they do, pony up (and btw stfu ) (them, not you )

Finn, I understand and certainly do not believe we are perfect. We act out of self-interest. But we've learned it's better for us to have customers! Not slaves.

Hence, Enlightened Self Interest.

Pete

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

... and that's a big problem when a democracy sends its sons and daughters off to war in a foreign land under a myriad of (false) pretenses.

Yeah, our leaders lie about why they're doing what they're doing or they just don't bother to actually tell us what they're doing.

John

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Hence, Enlightened Self Interest.

Pete

Ay Dios Mio, Ayn effing Rand, 'splains a lot.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Our current prosperity, the average person worldwide has never had it so good (including us!)

You may find this interesting. If "happiness" is what we're all after, the USA ranks 23 among the worlds countries. Having travelled and lived in over 50 countries, I believe there's something to this.