Why?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by beej

And I'm no armchair warrior, I can assure you of that. Bush's stated reason for going in was the WMD which morphed into Iraqi Freedom.

Is the world better off without Sadam? Absolutely. Did we need to go in when we did the way we did? I don't think so and neither do a lot of other professional soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and diplomats infinitely more learned than I.

I don't think it's cut and dry that the world is better off without Saddam (though he was indeed an unsavory character). He was an effective counterbalance to Iran's primacy in the region. Now Iran has more influence with Iraq's Shia majority than we do. By a long shot, in fact. The Iraq War will go down as one of the biggest foreign policy failures in the history of our nation.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by whell

Yawn....

To wit...

[Boreas]

For all his manifest sins, Saddam's Iraq was a functioning state and, thanks to UN surveillance, Iraq was no longer a threat to its neighbors. Now, thanks to Bush et al, Iraq is anything but a functioning state and the instability within can and has spread to its neighbors. (AQI is fighting in Syria.)

John

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by whell

I didn't know I was here to be helpful. I'll start typing slower so y'all can keep up.

Fine, as it is I have to put my brain in 1st gear to follow your stuff.

[CarlV]

I did a search on Bush Legacy. Too funny, almost as good as the old Bushisms. Oops, no WMD, well then we will nation build. Big ol tax cuts for the Leets, passed through reconcilation. I guess that means that they don't need funding then.


Carl

[icenine]

Originally Posted by whell

Its no conspiracy theory. Its not a secret that Ambassador Grew alerted the State Department in January 1941 that he had picked up intelligence that Pearl Harbor was at risk of an attack from Japan. Problem is no one took him seriously.

In December 1941, after US cryptographers had broken Japanese code, we knew a Japanese attack might be coming, but the cryptographers were unable to discern where the attack would be. No one put the pieces together. No one put the US pacific fleet on alert.

And of course, that morning, radar operators on Oahu picking up the inbound Japanese aircraft. No one believed them either.

It wasn't a conspiracy. It was a human failure of communication, poor preparation and poor reaction of epic proportion.

pete was implying that FDR knew before hand there would be an attack on Pearl Harbor itself.....your points may be correct.

[piece-itpete]

No, but that he should've taken steps out of prudence from 'known knowns'. It may be one of the biggest Presidential failures ever.

Btw, the ww2 era is one of my favorites. I don't hate FDR but he's no angel, and he did tell Washington to go screw himself re: 2 terms.

Pete

[icenine]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

The worst invasion was Pearl Harbor. The Japs practically phoned Roosevelt (the anti-war guy ) and told him they were coming...Pete

Looks like an implication to me Pete. You are guilty of reading history from luxury of hindsight ergo that since B happened after A everyone should have known that B was coming. A common fallacy and to be honest most of us think of history in this rather false way.
No one knew what was coming on 6 December just as no knew what was going to happen on the day after 10 September in New York. A true history buff (i.e. someone as erudite as myself, as demonstrated by ability to cause Whelly to write long rejoinding posts) knows this and is always swift to pounce on even the inkling of the FDR-Devil conspiracy view of WWII!

[whell]

Originally Posted by icenine

Looks like an implication to me Pete. You are guilty of reading history from luxury of hindsight ergo that since B happened after A everyone should have known that B was coming. A common fallacy and to be honest most of us think of history in this rather false way.

Kinda like most Dems think about the Iraq war.

[piece-itpete]

If the fleet commander was scapegoated it must've been bad. Everything I've read, and most of it was a bit pro-FDR or at least studiously 'neutral', points out the 8 million warning signs.

Pete