A question for our Republican friends.....

[Pio1980]

Trump tends to follow his gut with inadequate information. This makes him impulsive and prone to costly errors in judgement. He accepts criticism poorly if at all and anything that offends his self image will almost invariably set him off and cause him to impulsively over-react. His primary motivations are financial and anything that supports or promotes his self image, and he will always react to defend that self image. Almost anything outside of his immediate family (if this is an exception) is secondary to serving his inflated concept of himself, everything he values or does, including his family, serves this one and only end. He will say and do anything to sell this sucessful image of himself, relying on anything he says or does in that endeavour is risky at best and foolish at worst, as has been repeatedly demonstrated with the results of many of his failures to deliver on his promises.

He is the living embodiment of pompous narcissism, if I need to reiterate the obvious. His success in selling himself as a Presidential candidate will be the literal crown jewel in a career serving his resume' as a heavily redacted public image of financial "success", sold as something that it clearly is not, and that cannot/will not translate into political competence.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[whell]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Whell, I'm intrigued by what you say, and I'd like to understand more. What big groupthink mistake is happening in the media? It is wrong to label Trump a demagogue? If you think that, can you explain why?

I'd also be interested in what parts of the 'Trump total package' give you pause at this time.

First of all, no worries. And thanks.

Groupthink:

The "dark speech" thing is but one example. I think the first time I really noticed it was a few years ago during the first Bush II campaign. Someone in the media uttered the word "gravitas". It spread through the media like wildfire, far beyond the borders of "sincerest form of flattery".

Another time - mid great recession - when Michelle O took the kids on a trip somewhere. Someone in the media threw out the word "optics". That word went viral on every news network for days afterword.

Those are two I can think of off the top of my head. There have been many. After a while, your start to think that it really doesn't matter which network or cable news show you might watch because they're all spewing the same talk tracks. Its not even news anymore.

Trump:

"Wrong" to label him a demagogue? No, but then you'd need to find me a politician who isn't one. Most spin up their own version of the truth. If you want to call to "demagogue" or a "liar", then hold any other politician harmless for the same behavior (like "if you like your plan you can keep it", or "shovel ready jobs", or "the summer of recovery", or pick any aspect of the Iran nuke deal you want), then you render the words "demagogue" and "liar" meaningless.

What gives me pause? Probably the same thing as everybody else. His ability to unite the party, his communication style, questions about his elect-ability, etc. Do his occasional personal attacks represent a penchant for abusive behavior - something that folks who deal with him frequently in both business and personal contexts don't validate - or just "New York style ball - busting"?

Trump has demonstrated that he's not a doctrinaire conservative. That should appeal to a lot of moderates, including some Dems. While I do agree with many of the policy positions listed on his web page, I'm wondering where his core principles are, and what policy positions he'll compromise to "make a deal".

Those are the big things, I guess.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Well, you have to admit that if I am, it is kinder and gentler boxing.

And you, as usual, are still using your judo, and, as is quite typical, you're using it on me.

Thank you for the confirmation.

If you have an inner ear problem I apologize for upsetting your balance. My intent is not to damage you as claimed. Google definition of judo: a sport of unarmed combat derived from jujitsu and intended to train the body and mind. It involves using holds and leverage to unbalance the opponent.

FWIW, the purpose of the sweet science it to avoid/minimize damage while inflicting it.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by nailer

Thank you for the confirmation.

If you have an inner ear problem I apologize for upsetting your balance. My intent is not to damage you as claimed. Google definition of judo: a sport of unarmed combat derived from jujitsu and intended to train the body and mind. It involves using holds and leverage to unbalance the opponent.

And thank you for your confirmation. This metaphor duel has served it's purpose. All interaction is instructive, I will try not to return hostility.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by whell

First of all, no worries. And thanks.

Groupthink:

The "dark speech" thing is but one example. I think the first time I really noticed it was a few years ago during the first Bush II campaign. Someone in the media uttered the word "gravitas". It spread through the media like wildfire, far beyond the borders of "sincerest form of flattery".

Another time - mid great recession - when Michelle O took the kids on a trip somewhere. Someone in the media threw out the word "optics". That word went viral on every news network for days afterword.

Those are two I can think of off the top of my head. There have been many. After a while, your start to think that it really doesn't matter which network or cable news show you might watch because they're all spewing the same talk tracks. Its not even news anymore.

Trump:

"Wrong" to label him a demagogue? No, but then you'd need to find me a politician who isn't one. Most spin up their own version of the truth. If you want to call to "demagogue" or a "liar", then hold any other politician harmless for the same behavior (like "if you like your plan you can keep it", or "shovel ready jobs", or "the summer of recovery", or pick any aspect of the Iran nuke deal you want), then you render the words "demagogue" and "liar" meaningless.

What gives me pause? Probably the same thing as everybody else. His ability to unite the party, his communication style, questions about his elect-ability, etc. Do his occasional personal attacks represent a penchant for abusive behavior - something that folks who deal with him frequently in both business and personal contexts don't validate - or just "New York style ball - busting"?

Trump has demonstrated that he's not a doctrinaire conservative. That should appeal to a lot of moderates, including some Dems. While I do agree with many of the policy positions listed on his web page, I'm wondering where his core principles are, and what policy positions he'll compromise to "make a deal".

Those are the big things, I guess.

Appreciate the time you took with that, whell.

Yes, memes spread through the news, possibly naturally, and sometimes, no doubt, with some influence promoting them. One thing though-you said 'groupthink mistake.' Is there a mistake in the 'dark speech' meme, or did trump indeed go OTT in painting the 'current state of things' very darkly?

I of course agree with more 'stark and alarming' versions of the Trump faults you identify. To quote myself from a recent post:

He promises things, like 'bringing back jobs,' but he doesn't say how he will do it. This is because he doesn't know how he will do it, and he further doesn't even know that he doesn't know.

Or, if he does know, he doesn't care. Because actually being able to perform isn't necessary to closing the deal. All that's necessary is that the 'buyer' think you can.

[whell]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Appreciate the time you took with that, whell.

Is there a mistake in the 'dark speech' meme, or did trump indeed go OTT in painting the 'current state of things' very darkly?

It's not about the content of the speech? The term "Dark" really isn't a term most people use every day. It's just beyond coincidence to me that the term would be so quickly recycled by so many in the media.

Fact is, things do look pretty down from the perspective of many. Some might call Trump's decision to channel that feeling in a speech "populist", "demagogic" or whatever. I think the CNN post speech poll suggests that he may have struck a nerve.

Originally Posted by donquixote99

I of course agree with more 'stark and alarming' versions of the Trump faults you identify. To quote myself from a recent post:

He promises things, like 'bringing back jobs,' but he doesn't say how he will do it. This is because he doesn't know how he will do it, and he further doesn't even know that he doesn't know.

I think he's got a pretty good idea, and he laid some of it out in his acceptance speech. There's more info on his web page.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

Sorta like battery companies. I asked them why is it now costing 100.00 for the same batteries I used to get for 40.00 and you know what their anwser was? Thank the EPA, they've made it very costly to make a product for us to provide to you. And that's not to mention the batteries that cost 250.00 now. When I install one of those I sometimes have to explain to someone why the price is so much higher than the last one they bought 8 years ago. It really sucks, and it hurts people. And tires? God don't get me started

IIRC, Trump recently stated that people will have to bear in mind that bringing those jobs back to the U.S. will cause inflation. I'm thinking he's right about that and if it actually happens you will see support for it evaporate quickly once those products hit the shelves. I have a feeling he knows it too. It's a Catch-22, Dave. Our workers want stronger wages and 40 hours.........But refuse to pay higher prices to support it.

Environmental protection is a factor, but I don't think the job losses have as much to do with the EPA as we're told. American consumers have long demanded and business has found ways to supply cheaper goods. Government has done little more than open the door for them with these trade deals.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see the trend on manufacturing reverse and the higher paying jobs return. I just don't think it will happen the way so many seem to think it will.

Look at the steel industry today. Many people don't know that we still produce steel in America. But, the new mills are much smaller, employ far less people and, for the most part, operate non-union. So people who think bringing steel jobs back to America will somehow be a return to the "Good ol' Days" of big mills that employ thousands at high wages are being foolish. Those days are gone forever. Even if they get the return of "jobs" they want, it will not be what they think.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by whell

It's not about the content of the speech? The term "Dark" really isn't a term most people use every day. It's just beyond coincidence to me that the term would be so quickly recycled by so many in the media.

Fact is, things do look pretty down from the perspective of many. Some might call Trump's decision to channel that feeling in a speech "populist", "demagogic" or whatever. I think the CNN post speech poll suggests that he may have struck a nerve.



I think he's got a pretty good idea, and he laid some of it out in his acceptance speech. There's more info on his web page.

Oh, he has struck a nerve alright. I have no doubt about that. What I have serious reservations about is the ability to deliver.

Trumps acceptance speech was by far the biggest load of self aggrandizing and Utopian promise making hullabaloo with no coherent plan for execution I have ever seen, bar none. The only "HUGE" thing I see coming are the disappointments. It's ridiculous.

"I'm going to fix whatever pisses you off!" is not a realistic goal.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Look at the steel industry today. Many people don't know that we still produce steel in America. But, the new mills are much smaller, employ far less people and, for the most part, operate non-union. So people who think bringing steel jobs back to America will somehow be a return to the "Good ol' Days" of big mills that employ thousands at high wages are being foolish. Those days are gone forever. Even if they get the return of "jobs" they want, it will not be what they think.

It was piss poor management that lost us the steel industry for a time. After the war they were the only steel producers or nearly so. Europe and Japan had their steel industry bombed flat so they had to rebuild, which they did using the latest technology. Instead of investing our steel industry just raked in the profits and got caught with their pants down.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by merrylander

It was piss poor management that lost us the steel industry for a time. After the war they were the only steel producers or nearly so. Europe and Japan had their steel industry bombed flat so they had to rebuild, which they did using the latest technology. Instead of investing our steel industry just raked in the profits and got caught with their pants down.

All true. But, that's all history. I was speaking of what we have in the here and now.

It will NEVER be what it was.