Poor Ben.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Boreas

No more than you are (unless being disagreed with is "trouble").

On this forum anything less than scathing comments about fascist Israelis perping apartheid on poor helpless Hamas puts one in line for the bigot card to be played.

Originally Posted by Boreas

The thing you're both doing is claiming that those of us who are critical of the actions of the IDF and the current government are totally okay with the violence perpetrated by Palestinian. That's silly, of course, but it does give you a convenient pretext for dismissing our arguments.

A surprisingly flaccid post from you John. If you had anything substantial to counter any of matteos' spot on comments, you would have used them.

Then I got to thinking, if it was worth the effort it might be fun to chart how many comments referring to acts of oppression and cruelty perped by vicious Israelis we get on this forum for every comment about sick Hamas fucks dragging corpses around Gaza City behind their ratty motorbikes, or heads being lopped off by pious supporters of the Islamic caliphate. Then I got to thinking it isn't.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by matteos

Rubbish.

There has been a huge wave of violence from Palestinians against Israeli citizens recently.. Stabbings, car jackings, shootings, murder etc etc.

Nobody talks about it..But when Israel goes in... Then that's all we hear about.

Funny that Egypt also has a blockade against Palestine, nobody talks about that. No Arab country wants the Palestinians. They all want them in that little area to make Israel look bad and because they also hate them.

Palestinians accepted Hamas, accepted death to the Jews as part of their constitution Palestine fires rockets into Israel daily and fires these rockets from hospitals and schools. Yes, Hamas is not much different to ISIS, they are perhaps less extreme, but not by that much.

If you think the story in Israel and Palestine is one of pure Israeli victimization of Palestine you are mistaken. Fact is, Israel often restrains itself. Other nations would have bulldozed Palestine into the sea.

I'm glad there was an 'if' in the next-to-last sentence. No, I don't think a silly thing like that. Cute rhetorical move, though. What if I wonder if you really favor punishing family members as hostages for the misdeeds of dead people, without anything remotely like due process of law?

As for my 'not criticizing the Palestinians,' if a spokesman comes on the board and defends knifing civilians in the street, I will criticize him. Meanwhile, I was criticizing Ike for what Ike said here. BTW, you are doing just what I was talking about with Ike--bringing up the badness of the other side as a defense, instead of trying to justify what the Israelis actually do (which gets a bit sticky, I fear).

Is there anything Israel could do that would not be 'jusftified' by how rotten the Palestinians are? I get the distinct impression, from your last sentence, that you would not blame them if they abandoned all restraint and went to out-and-out genocide. The idea is always 'thinkable,' as you yourself demonstrate....

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

On this forum anything less than scathing comments about fascist Israelis perping apartheid on poor helpless Hamas puts one in line for the bigot card to be played.

Cite me an example. Really, just one. I'm pretty sure you can't

A surprisingly flaccid post from you John. If you had anything substantial to counter any of matteos' spot on comments, you would have used them.

Actually, I didn't read his post through. After a sentence or two I realized I'd read it before.

Then I got to thinking, if it was worth the effort it might be fun to chart how many comments referring to acts of oppression and cruelty perped by vicious Israelis we get on this forum for every comment about sick Hamas fucks dragging corpses around Gaza City behind their ratty motorbikes, or heads being lopped off by pious supporters of the Islamic caliphate. Then I got to thinking it isn't.[/QUOTE]

Have at it!

But leave ISIS out of the equation. It won't serve your agenda since there is not a soul here defending them and they've got damn all to do with the Palestinians who, by the way, are on Assad's side in Syria (and Lebanon). They don't like him much but they understand he's their only protection.

And how many corpses can you point to that were dragged behind motorbikes in Gaza?

Now, how many Gazan schools and hospitals can you point to which the IDF flattened?

And how many kids have been killed for slinging rocks at tanks and what happened to their entire family as a result?

[matteos]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

I'm glad there was an 'if' in the next-to-last sentence. No, I don't think a silly thing like that. Cute rhetorical move, though. What if I wonder if you really favor punishing family members as hostages for the misdeeds of dead people, without anything remotely like due process of law?

As for my 'not criticizing the Palestinians,' if a spokesman comes on the board and defends knifing civilians in the street, I will criticize him. Meanwhile, I was criticizing Ike for what Ike said here. BTW, you are doing just what I was talking about with Ike--bringing up the badness of the other side as a defense, instead of trying to justify what the Israelis actually do (which gets a bit sticky, I fear).

Is there anything Israel could do that would not be 'jusftified' by how rotten the Palestinians are? I get the distinct impression, from your last sentence, that you would not blame them if they abandoned all restraint and went to out-and-out genocide. The idea is always 'thinkable,' as you yourself demonstrate....

The problem is though. Is outside of Ike and maybe a couple of other Jewish people.... Nobody does anything but condemn Israel and it is silence when it comes to pointing out the sins of Hamas.

I see it everyday in the news or on my facebook feed. Israel this, Israel that. Poor Palestine etc. I used to think the same way until I discussed the issue at length with an Israeli over the internet. At the time I didn't even realise the things Palestine actually did (Like fire rockets every day into Israel).

I get it. There was lots of support in the USA for the IRA, because they were perceived to be "freedom fighters" or whatever. Fact of the matter is, the IRA blew up buses with civilians. They put nail bombs in pubs, they kneecapped Irish drug dealers and criminals etc.

If anybody blindly supports terrorist groups OR blindly condemns the targets of said terrorist groups without looking at the sins, then, frankly they're blinkered at best.

I don't think Israel is some moral tower. But it is a functioning democracy that gives rights to all its people. Its constitution does not declare for the destruction of another country and its peoples. It doesn't fire weapons from its hospitals and schools, thinking (correctly) that a counter strike will cause world headlines the next day about how evil the other country is. Israel doesn't occupy Palestine, it doesn't run Palestine. It just blocks it, because the ONLY thing Hamas is interested in is smuggling weapons into Palestine from Iran. It brings in concrete and building materials, not to build homes but to build tunnels into Israel so it can plan schemes such as terrorist attacks or kidnapping children.

Until Palestine rejects Hamas there will only be war.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Yep.

PS - You're in trouble now.

If you mean he'll face disagreement in civil discussion on a political board, sure.

If you mean we're not arguing honestly from consistent values, but are just punishing you for not a 'proper liberal; or something, show it. Show the inconsistency, give evidence for the purported malice.

[matteos]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

No mention here of settlements. BTW it is felt in some quarters that Hamas is a "creation" of Mossad.

Yeah. And 911 was an inside job. Also Israel abandoned many of its settlements.

[matteos]

In the last ten years Hamas has fired 11,000+ rockets into Israel. That is roughly 3 rockets a day. Some 5 million Israelis are in firing range of those rockets.

https://www.idfblog.com/facts-figure...toward-israel/

Even Amnesty International actually condemned Hamas rocket attacks

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32053999

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...acks_on_Israel

What would the USA do if Tijuana fired 3 rockets a day into San Diego?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by matteos

The problem is though. Is outside of Ike and maybe a couple of other Jewish people.... Nobody does anything but condemn Israel and it is silence when it comes to pointing out the sins of Hamas.

To the extent that what you say is true, it's a reaction to the IDF's grotesquely disproportionate response.

At the time I didn't even realise the things Palestine actually did (Like fire rockets every day into Israel).

They don't.

I get it. There was lots of support in the USA for the IRA, because they were perceived to be "freedom fighters" or whatever.

There wasn't.

If anybody blindly supports terrorist groups OR blindly condemns the targets of said terrorist groups without looking at the sins, then, frankly they're blinkered at best.

If anybody maintains that the Israelis are utterly blameless in this carnage, then, frankly, they're either not paying attention or they have a rather nefarious agenda.

(See? I can do that too!)

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by matteos

The problem is though. Is outside of Ike and maybe a couple of other Jewish people.... Nobody does anything but condemn Israel and it is silence when it comes to pointing out the sins of Hamas.

I see it everyday in the news or on my facebook feed. Israel this, Israel that. Poor Palestine etc. I used to think the same way until I discussed the issue at length with an Israeli over the internet. At the time I didn't even realise the things Palestine actually did (Like fire rockets every day into Israel).

I get it. There was lots of support in the USA for the IRA, because they were perceived to be "freedom fighters" or whatever. Fact of the matter is, the IRA blew up buses with civilians. They put nail bombs in pubs, they kneecapped Irish drug dealers and criminals etc.

If anybody blindly supports terrorist groups OR blindly condemns the targets of said terrorist groups without looking at the sins, then, frankly they're blinkered at best.

I don't think Israel is some moral tower. But it is a functioning democracy that gives rights to all its people. Its constitution does not declare for the destruction of another country and its peoples. It doesn't fire weapons from its hospitals and schools, thinking (correctly) that a counter strike will cause world headlines the next day about how evil the other country is. Israel doesn't occupy Palestine, it doesn't run Palestine. It just blocks it, because the ONLY thing Hamas is interested in is smuggling weapons into Palestine from Iran. It brings in concrete and building materials, not to build homes but to build tunnels into Israel so it can plan schemes such as terrorist attacks or kidnapping children.

Until Palestine rejects Hamas there will only be war.

There you go again. IF anybody does what you said and I bolded, I agree. But you're talking to me now, and I am not your Facebook feed, and I'm responsible for what I say only. Try to respond to that.

You should not define enemies based just on identity, eg, 'Hamas.' Your last sentence is very close to saying 'until Palestinians stop being Palestinians, there will be war.' That is not a legitimate demand. You can demand behavior changes. You can't demand that your enemy stop being who they are.

Firing rockets and mortars is certainly a violent attack, and justifies defense. Israe'ls 'retaliations' are also violent attacks. Blockades are enforced with violence, and have harmful effects like violence. Everyone has legitimate grievances and wrongs to answer for.

I agree there will be endless war--unless radical action to change the game is taken by one side or the other. I advise both sides to adopt a thoroughly non-violent approach and give up all aggressive aspirations.

[matteos]

Boreas, all you've done is say. No they don't, no it isn't.

Facts are staring you in the face whether you choose to accept them or not.

Palestine rockets are well documented.

Money from the USA to the IRA is well documented.