Abortion; Is this true?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

Whatever gets you through the night, Pete. Sanctity of human life my ass.

Nobody got to choose who their parents were. We're all concerned about some poor woman in the projects aborting her fetus, but once it pops out, we're quick to complain about welfare or food stamps or public education. We offer nothing to clean up the areas of our country that offer almost zero chance of growing up in any manner that will result in anything less than jail. We're mighty quick to build the jails, though. And have little trouble murdering the "child" 20 or 30 years later.

The people who happened to be under our bombs when we decided to liberate them had little say in the matter either, Pete. But some things just have to be done. No sanctity of human life there. Sorry, we need the oil too badly.

We can be all for preserving human life. I think that's a noble cause. But to say we're doing it in one case then so clearly not doing it in so many others is far more of a societal sin than abortion in my opinion.

+1, emphatically. The whole sanctity of life argument with respect to abortion made by the religious right falls apart when it comes to the death penalty, supporting a trumped up invasion of Iraq that killed over 100,000 innocent Iraqis, or even denying health coverage to 30 million fellow citizens.

Sometimes I think self-righteousness about abortion is nothing but an a cynical attempt to gain the moral high ground at someone else's expense.

[piece-itpete]

Still choices Eddie. A guy signs up for the military, another goes on a spree raping and killing 5-10 women, the consequences are theirs.

Military casualties and legal executions are not murder. Civilian casualties, hmm. Tough one. But citizenry is responsible for its' government, some here on both sides think.

And of course, we can't stop wars by hitting a switch either.

Everyone has to play the cards they're dealt.

Pete

[piece-itpete]

.........

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Military casualties and legal executions are not murder.* Civilian casualties, hmm. Tough one. But citizenry is responsible for its' government, some here on both sides think.

* Neither is abortion (Roe vs. Wade)

As for it being moral to kill 100,000 civilians in a war declared on erroneous grounds, that's a pretty low bar for morality.

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Denying health care = murder LOL!

Pete

Both abortion and denying health care cause death. Neither are murder.

[piece-itpete]

Hell eating red meat causes death. Life causes death. My parents killed me.

Agreed, since Roe vs Wade, abortion does not meet the definition of murder.

And we didn't kill 100k Finn. Many were Iraqi on Iraqi murders. A mistake overall? Many yell so.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Hell eating red meat causes death. Life causes death. My parents killed me.

Agreed, since Roe vs Wade, abortion does not meet the definition of murder.

And we didn't kill 100k Finn. Many were Iraqi on Iraqi murders. A mistake overall? Many yell so.

Pete

I guess part of the point I was trying to make (albeit poorly) was the selective outrage over abortion by many of its opponents.

I admire the Catholic Church (with which I was affiliated many years ago, but no longer) for their consistent stands on these issues. They're anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, against the Iraq War, and favored PPACA (except Federal funding for abortion, of course). The consistency in these views is admirable.

I find the Religious Right's positions on these issues internally inconsistent to the point of being non-sensical.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Still choices Eddie. A guy signs up for the military, another goes on a spree raping and killing 5-10 women, the consequences are theirs.

Military casualties and legal executions are not murder. Civilian casualties, hmm. Tough one. But citizenry is responsible for its' government, some here on both sides think.

And of course, we can't stop wars by hitting a switch either.

Everyone has to play the cards they're dealt.

Pete

Not a choice to live in a neighborhood where bullets fly and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. But it is a choice not to fund our police departments in a way that would reign in crime in our worst neighborhoods.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/Two-year-ol...100596894.html

Citizenry is responsible for its government?!?! Then why the hell are we "liberating" them from a brutal "dictator"?! Doesn't that state pretty clearly that they had no choice in the matter? And isn't that the exact argument the terrorists use to justify killing Americans? Hey, you're responsible for what your government does, so it's okay to kill you.

As for playing the cards you're dealt, that's well and good for me. But we're stacking the deck against a lot of folks, Pete.

And you can say "legal" executions are not murder if you like. Why do you say so, Pete? Because it's legal? Newsflash: So is abortion. But, hey, don't like that word? Fine- I'll quote. Not my word's Pete:

Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

I went with the King James version because my Charismatic Christian friends tell me it's the most literal translation. I always think it’s worth looking to the Gospels, though, as they are the teachings of Jesus.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

No, it's pretty clear. I see no special case against abortion from a biblical point of view that can't be applied to any of the other examples.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by finnbow

* Neither is abortion (Roe vs. Wade)

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Agreed, since Roe vs Wade, abortion does not meet the definition of murder.

You guys are too quick for me today.

[piece-itpete]

Happens to me all the time Eddie

As the future great Salvor Hardin would say, the atom blaster is an excellent weapon, but it can point both ways. If abortion is equal to the death penalty, then there is a dissonance with the left's support of abortion as well.

Pete

PS if you can't tell, I've been reading the Foundation again

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

As the future great Salvor Hardin would say, the atom blaster is an excellent weapon, but it can point both ways. If abortion is equal to the death penalty, then there is a dissonance with the left's support of abortion as well.

I agree, Pete. I honestly do. We need to have an honest discussion about abortion in this country. The problem is that the extremes on each end (no offense, Pete, but you're on one of them) scare the majority in the middle out of the debate. The people on the left fear that if they give one inch, abortion will be slowly outlawed. And for good reason. That is indeed the objective of some on the right. Nibble away at it until it’s gone altogether.

But there is reasonable room here. I do *not*, for example, think an embryo the morning after conception is a human being. Sorry. I don’t. It’s a cell. As such, I’m not against RU486. I am opposed to very late term abortion barring very rare instances where the mother’s life is at risk. Personally, I’d give my life for my child, but it’s not my decision to make for someone else.

Somewhere in between there is a judgment call. There’s a line we could draw that wouldn’t be perfect, but better than what we have now. I don’t know how that would work, legally, given my understanding of the Roe V. Wade decision. Unfortunately we can’t have the debate, so nothing will happen.

Another Irony- the people standing at the boarder yelling “illegal!” think the law of the land is wrong. Go figure.