The N word.

[Combwork]

OK, I know this is edgy and I mean no insult to anyone, but has nigger always been seen as an insulting word? Mark Twain was an educated man, and used it a lot in his stories about life on the Mississippi, most notably "The Adventurers of Tom Sawyer" and "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", yet in one of these books he describes Jim the nigger as "the finest man he had ever met". Reprints of both books have changed the N word to black man.

If a learned man did not consider it a term of abuse then, when did it become one? In 1939 Agatha Christie wrote a book called "10 little niggers". In England in 1939 it was just a line in a nursery rhyme; I doubt very much that she saw it as insulting. When the book was re-published, the title was changed to "10 little Indians". If it's printed again, what can they call it that wouldn't be seen as insulting to someone?

I'm curious about the use of words and how they change. In 18th century London a lot of lanes and alleyways, especially round the docks had names related to their use; "Candlemakers Row" and so on. Some years back there was a live radio programme on BBC Radio 4 about the use of words and how they change. One of the guests said that on pre-Victorian maps, "Gropecunt Alley" was an alley where Sailors could find 'ladies of leisure'. Being live it couldn't be edited out, but the silence of the other guests was deafening...........

[finnbow]

From Wiki:

By the 1900s, nigger had become a pejorative word. In its stead, the term colored became the mainstream alternative to negro and its derived terms. Abolitionists in Boston, Massachusetts, posted warnings to the Colored People of Boston and vicinity. Writing in 1904, journalist Clifton Johnson documented the "opprobrious" character of the word, emphasizing that it was chosen in the South precisely because it was more offensive than "colored."[9] Established as mainstream American English usage, the word colored features in the organizational title of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, reflecting the members’ racial identity preference at the 1909 foundation. In the Southern United States, the local American English dialect changes the pronunciation of negro to nigra. Linguistically, in developing American English, in the early editions of A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language (1806), lexicographer Noah Webster suggested the neger new spelling in place of negro.[10]

By the late 1960s, the social progress achieved in US society, by such as the Black Civil Rights Movement (1955–68), had legitimized the racial identity word black as mainstream American English usage to denote black-skinned Americans of African ancestry. In the event, the “political militant” connotations of black displaced it in favor of the compound blanket term African American. Moreover, as a compound word, African American resembles the vogue word Afro-American, an early-1970s popular usage. Contemporaneously black Americans use the word nigger, often spelled in eye dialect as nigga and niggah, without irony, to either neutral effect or as a sign of solidarity.

Sounds about right to me.

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by finnbow

From Wiki:

By the 1900s, nigger had become a pejorative word. In its stead, the term colored became the mainstream alternative to negro and its derived terms. Abolitionists in Boston, Massachusetts, posted warnings to the Colored People of Boston and vicinity. Writing in 1904, journalist Clifton Johnson documented the "opprobrious" character of the word, emphasizing that it was chosen in the South precisely because it was more offensive than "colored."[9] Established as mainstream American English usage, the word colored features in the organizational title of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, reflecting the members’ racial identity preference at the 1909 foundation. In the Southern United States, the local American English dialect changes the pronunciation of negro to nigra. Linguistically, in developing American English, in the early editions of A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language (1806), lexicographer Noah Webster suggested the neger new spelling in place of negro.[10]

By the late 1960s, the social progress achieved in US society, by such as the Black Civil Rights Movement (1955–68), had legitimized the racial identity word black as mainstream American English usage to denote black-skinned Americans of African ancestry. In the event, the “political militant” connotations of black displaced it in favor of the compound blanket term African American. Moreover, as a compound word, African American resembles the vogue word Afro-American, an early-1970s popular usage. Contemporaneously black Americans use the word nigger, often spelled in eye dialect as nigga and niggah, without irony, to either neutral effect or as a sign of solidarity.

Sounds about right to me.

Me too. As Mark Twain published his book in the late 19th century, I guess he just used a word that was common parlance and not seen by everyone as insulting. As for Agatha Christie, in the 1930's there were few black people living in England, so I guess she just picked a word out of a nursery rhyme.

[JJIII]

Seems to me that using a phrase like "the 'N' word" is a cop-out and a chickenshit way of saying something. Everybody knows what you are substituting and when you say "the 'N' word" everybody knows exactly what you mean. The freaking word exists and there are times when the use is proper... quotes for example. If an insensitive dolt uses the word "nigger" then when he/she is quoted that word should be used. Flip side, it is a hurtful word used in the wrong context and should never be used as a weapon because of the negative effects that it carries. Changing Mark Twain is adulterating art and is ridiculous. We could just as well slim down Leonardo's "Madonna" because she, after all, is a little plump according to today's standards.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by JJIII

Seems to me that using a phrase like "the 'N' word" is a cop-out and a chickenshit way of saying something. Everybody knows what you are substituting and when you say "the 'N' word" everybody knows exactly what you mean. The freaking word exists and there are times when the use is proper... quotes for example. If an insensitive dolt uses the word "nigger" then when he/she is quoted that word should be used. Flip side, it is a hurtful word used in the wrong context and should never be used as a weapon because of the negative effects that it carries. Changing Mark Twain is adulterating art and is ridiculous. We could just as well slim down Leonardo's "Madonna" because she, after all, is a little plump according to today's standards.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

I tend to agree (but your analogy, not so much).

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by noonereal

I tend to agree (but your analogy, not so much).

It's just a word yes, but as this is primarily a U.S. site, I was not sure how nigger in the title of a post would go down. I was concerned that some people might take offense so strongly that they'd not read the post.

"Two countries divided by a common language". Who said that?

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Combwork

It's just a word yes, but as this is primarily a U.S. site, I was not sure how nigger in the title of a post would go down. I was concerned that some people might take offense so strongly that they'd not read the post.

"Two countries divided by a common language". Who said that?

As far as the thread title, you did the right thing.

[Charles]

Reminds me of the local story about the Optimist Club returning from a meeting.

They stopped at a restaurant and ordered a meal. When it came time for "Nigger Dave" (the only black member) to order, he asked the waitress "'Cuse me miss, but do you serve niggers in here?"

After she managed to stammer out a "Yes Sir, we do", Dave flashed her a big grin and said, "Then I'll take one medium rare."

But we Americans have become too sensitive for low brow humor of this sort.

Chas

[merrylander]

That was Winston Churchill "The Americans and the British, two friendly peoples seperated by a common language."

I was watching Rick Steves, the travel show guy, doing a documentary on how they produce his shows. The comment was that they have to do filming in galleries when they are closed (and pay handsomely). They noted that some art and statues that have been on display in Europe they do not film because of American mores. This prudishness probably dates from the Pilgrims, yet it seems you can't go three minutes in a movie without four lettered words - go figure.

[d-ray657]

I'm not really offended by the word in the context of a quote, but as a practice I don't even quote it. That's just like the the position that I don't begrudge anyone using the f-bomb, but I generally choose not to repeat it. If everyone knows what you are referring to when you use the terms "N-word" or "F-bomb" it doesn't seem necessary to me to repeat it.

With respect to Mark Twain's use of the term, I believe he was aware of the derogatory nature of the term. He used it for the impact and for the contrast between what the word stands for and the quality of the character who bears that name - and in essence overcomes the title given him.

Regards,

D-Ray