Hate the Man, Hate the Message, Or Hate the Loss

[bhunter]

I'd like to know why seemingly rational people disliked Trump's first Presidency? His stances are boilerplate conservative IMHO. He certainly never did anything that one could construe as Fascist. In fact, conservatism is just the opposite. Unfortunately, the proper term is Liberalism, but that's something else the left has stolen in their march forth to debase the great liberal tradition.

BTW, I used to post here regularly about 12 years ago and always found it enjoyable. Sadly, for me, it became too time consuming because of the salient arguments put forth by respondents. Anyway, those that may recall those days, thanks.

[Oasis]

He's a sleazy grifter, has been since as long as I remember and that's since the 80's.

His first time around he made a mess, he did a crap deal with the Taliban, abandoned US allies in Syria, and contributed to thousands and thousands of covid deaths with his lies and inaction around it.

His economic plan was to cut taxes for the wealthiest and impose tariffs that increased the cost of living.
Initially economy wise things were good, but that is because he was handed a good economy from the Obama administration.

He embraced and groveled to dictators and despots and was disrespectful to allies. He disrespected the US Military and It's members on numerous occasions.

He formulated an attack on the capital, and made other attempts with others to overturn a free and fair election.

He and his family grifted off America while in office.

He emboldened racism and bigotry.

He committed numerous crimes, and the only reason he ran this time was he started feeling the heat of justice bearing down on him.

I could go on but that will do for the moment.

[Watcher]

Well said!

[GChief]

How do seemly rational, I will even say intelligent as I know some, people support him?

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by GChief

How do seemly rational, I will even say intelligent as I know some, people support him?

Feelings over facts.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by bhunter

I'd like to know why seemingly rational people disliked Trump's first Presidency? His stances are boilerplate conservative IMHO. He certainly never did anything that one could construe as Fascist. In fact, conservatism is just the opposite. Unfortunately, the proper term is Liberalism, but that's something else the left has stolen in their march forth to debase the great liberal tradition.

BTW, I used to post here regularly about 12 years ago and always found it enjoyable. Sadly, for me, it became too time consuming because of the salient arguments put forth by respondents. Anyway, those that may recall those days, thanks.

His Chief of Staff and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, both highly educated men, believe him to be a Fascist. One of the world's leading authorities on Fascism, Robert Paxton, resisted calling Trump a Fascist, but changed his tune in light of Trump's 2024 campaign (as have other acknowledged experts in the field (Timothy Snyder, Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Anne Applebaum)). You argument against their reasoned conclusions seems to be "IMO, Trump is good and Fascism is bad. Therefore, Trump isn't Fascist." This is not reasoning, it's rationalization.

Even if you dispute the well-reasoned argument of his embrace of Fascist beliefs, his actions/inaction on Jan 6 were the unforgivable and disqualifying, as is his malignant narcissism, profound ignorance and contempt for the rule of law.

As for boilerplate conservatism, support for exorbitant tariffs, deliberately undermining American institutions (e.g., the judiciary, a free press), his contempt for the truth, organizing a coup against our own government, and sucking up to dictatorial leaders of our geopolitical adversaries is not conservative.

Meanwhile, Elon Musk joined Trump in his post-election call with Zelensky and JD Vance says US could drop support for NATO if Europe tries to regulate Musk’s (right wing disinformation spewing) social media platform. If that doesn't sound like corporatist authoritarianism (i.e., Fascism), I'm not sure what does.

[Noogies]

Originally Posted by bhunter

He certainly never did anything that one could construe as Fascist.

Arguable, but if this was in fact the case he certainly tried. He was, however, restrained by the grownups around him who did their best to subvert his toddler-mentality impulses and tantrums.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Noogies

Arguable, but if this was in fact the case he certainly tried. He was, however, restrained by the grownups around him who did their best to subvert his toddler-mentality impulses and tantrums.

Indeed. Tom Nichols, staff writer at The Atlantic, puts it "Trump’s reckless venality is a reason for hope. Trump has the soul of a fascist but the mind of a disordered child. He will likely be surrounded by terrible but incompetent people."

It kinda sucks that the world's greatest republic now depends on its leader's incompetence and childishness to survive its stumble toward authoritarianism.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Feelings over facts.

Trump got half of the college educated vote. This was puzzling to me.
Don I think the explanation is much more complex.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Trump got half of the college educated vote. This was puzzling to me.
Don I think the explanation is much more complex.

Don't think so. Anyone who looked at the facts would know that Trump is ignorant, malicious, dishonest, and unfit. It follows that the intelligent persons who voted for him either avoided exposure to such facts, or went into denial about them. Only feelings can account for such behavior.