Another Mass Shooting in the Good Ol' USA

[whell]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

But whell says he did, because he needed to say something bad about the guy. So now and forever, it's the 'truth,' he will never back down.

OK, he's a published physician. If you can find me a published document by him where he states that focusing on motive in these cases is imperative, then I'll reconsider. How's that?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Sure he did. We believe that the ritualized hunt for the shooter’s motive is usually an exercise in fruitless speculation and wasted resources.

Does this indicate to you that it's something he spends a lot of time on? I don't, but you can take from that statement whatever you wish.

And with all the info I've provided, THAT'S what you decide to focus on? Figures...

No, he didn't. He, a Director of Forensic Psychiatry and Associate Professor of Psychiatry, and his co-author, Editor in Chief Emeritus of Psychiatric Times, concluded, based upon their experience and outside studies, that a fixation upon motivation is not the right tack to take. In another study, the FBI wholeheartedly agreed:

In fact, a recent FBI report on 63 active shooters (2000-2013) found that only 25% (n = 16) of subjects had ever had a mental illness diagnosis; and of those, only 3 had a diagnosis of a psychotic disorder.11 The FBI report pointedly notes that, “. . . formally diagnosed mental illness is not a very specific predictor of violence of any type, let alone targeted violence;” and, further, that “declarations that all active shooters must simply be mentally ill are misleading and unhelpful.”

What's interesting is that the article you cited and the one I cited largely say the same thing - that mass shooters largely fit a widely-understood profile. The issue becomes what to do about it - compel those fitting the profile to seek mental health treatment or prevent them from acquiring firearms. The GOP is adamantly opposed to both - "red flag" laws to prevent the mentally ill from getting guns or enhanced school mental health programs (both of which they have voted against on numerous occasions). Indeed, Trump rolled back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for the mentally ill to purchase guns.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by whell

OK, he's a published physician. If you can find me a published document by him where he states that focusing on motive in these cases is imperative, then I'll reconsider. How's that?

By 'him' you mean Dr Knoll, the guy you were bashing? He's quoted by Finn as saying "the search for motive is fruitless." So why do you think there should be something were he says focusing on motive is imperative? Don't follow you here.

[Oerets]

The only solution put forth by the Gun Organism Party is to arm everyone. Live in the Wild Wild West or a Police State it seems.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

No, he didn't. He, a Director of Forensic Psychiatry and Associate Professor of Psychiatry, and his co-author, Editor in Chief Emeritus of Psychiatric Times, concluded, based upon their experience and outside studies, that a fixation upon motivation is not the right tack to take. In another study, the FBI wholeheartedly agreed:

[I]In fact, a recent FBI report on 63 active shooters (2000-2013) found that only 25% (n = 16) of subjects had ever had a mental illness diagnosis; and of those, only 3 had a diagnosis of a psychotic disorder.11 .....
[/URL]

Correct. The FBI counted individuals who were tagged with a clinical diagnosis. I also provided you, in an earlier post, link to research that was done recently (which you apparently ignored) on the backgrounds of shooters that found that of the shooters that sought psych help, many were either misdiagnosed or not diagnosed despite evidence to the contrary.

So, one looked at others' studies, or did a meta-analysis, and drew a conclusion based on available data, which may have been flawed or incomplete. The other study actually reviewed the background of each shooter plus their diagnostic histories.

I think I'll stick with the latter. I'll also stick with the reports from the other two docs who have studied shooter and shooting incents specifically for years, and determined that it's possible to profile shooters and intervene before its too late.

YMMV...

[whell]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

By 'him' you mean Dr Knoll, the guy you were bashing? He's quoted by Finn as saying "the search for motive is fruitless." So why do you think there should be something were he says focusing on motive is imperative? Don't follow you here.

Because:

1) I've provided links to studies that are specifically contrary to his statement.
2) Because he has stated that determining motive in mass shooting cases is "usually an exercise in fruitless speculation and wasted resources".

You and Finn are stating that he didn't say that - even though the quote was provided by Finn.

The quote from Knoll was provided by Finn in response to links to a study that I provided that indicated that motive was a kay part of the profiling exercise for a mass shooter.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Correct. The FBI counted individuals who were tagged with a clinical diagnosis. I also provided you, in an earlier post, link to research that was done recently (which you apparently ignored) on the backgrounds of shooters that found that of the shooters that sought psych help, many were either misdiagnosed or not diagnosed despite evidence to the contrary.

So, one looked at others' studies, or did a meta-analysis, and drew a conclusion based on available data, which may have been flawed or incomplete. The other study actually reviewed the background of each shooter plus their diagnostic histories.

I think I'll stick with the latter. I'll also stick with the reports from the other two docs who have studied shooter and shooting incents specifically for years, and determined that it's possible to profile shooters and intervene before its too late.

YMMV...

What's interesting is that the article you cited and the one I cited largely say the same thing - that mass shooters largely fit a widely-understood profile. The issue becomes what to do about it - compel those fitting the profile to seek mental health treatment or prevent them from acquiring firearms. The GOP is adamantly opposed to both - "red flag" laws to prevent the mentally ill from getting guns or enhanced school mental health programs (both of which they have voted against on numerous occasions). Indeed, Trump rolled back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for the mentally ill to purchase guns.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by whell

Because:

1) I've provided links to studies that are specifically contrary to his statement.
2) Because he has stated that determining motive in mass shooting cases is "usually an exercise in fruitless speculation and wasted resources".

You and Finn are stating that he didn't say that - even though the quote was provided by Finn.

The quote from Knoll was provided by Finn in response to links to a study that I provided that indicated that motive was a kay part of the profiling exercise for a mass shooter.

(emphasis added)

I never said any such thing. You are fogging with nonsense.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

What's interesting is that the article you cited and the one I cited largely say the same thing - that mass shooters largely fit a widely-understood profile. The issue becomes what to do about it - compel those fitting the profile to seek mental health treatment or prevent them from acquiring firearms. The GOP is adamantly opposed to both - "red flag" laws to prevent the mentally ill from getting guns or enhanced school mental health programs (both of which they have voted against on numerous occasions). Indeed, Trump rolled back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for the mentally ill to purchase guns.

Let's solve one issue at a time. The pursuit of firearms legislation and dealing with mental illness don't need to be linked. If anything, the rollback of the regulation you cited has zero impact on this discussion. Clearly both before and after the imposition of that regulation, individuals with mental illness were still able to obtain firearms.

Mental health is the common denominator - particularly when the objective of the shooter is to end up dead either self-inflicted or health by cop - in most of these cases.

The recent shooting in MI at Oxford High School shooting is an absolute textbook for what school administrators, teachers, and fellow students should NOT do when faced with an individual who fits the profile. The kid's teacher knew he was struggling, and the school's administration knew he was struggling (the morning of the shooting, the school administrators asked the parents to get the kid into counseling "within 48 hours". This was after seeing the kid's drawings of violent and disturbing imagery and discussing the kid's history of behavior and disciplinary issues with the parents. Was this shooting preventable with appropriate parental or school intervention? Yes.

The Parkland shooter also had a history of disciplinary problems. The biggest failure in the Parkland case may be the fact that the shooter called the FBI and tipped them off that he was intending to become violent at school. Was this shooting preventable? Probably.

Columbine was the first. Oxford, Parkland and other similar shootings are copy-cats. Right from a video on the FBI's website:

John Van Dreal, Director of Safety and Risk Management Services, Salem-Keizer School District, Oregon: They view that as the beginning of the Beta Revolution, where the rejected or the isolated males take revenge on the alpha males and the alpha females. Those two young men stood on the stage at the center of the social solar system for youth and screamed and yelled their rage through violence, and did so in a manner that got worldwide attention.

Narrator: Columbine has inspired over 80 copycat attacks. Hundreds of lives have been lost. Countless more have been injured. And its impact keeps on growing.

If these shootings have a pattern, if the shooters have a pattern, then let's find solutions around that angle.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

If these shootings have a pattern, if the shooters have a pattern, then let's find solutions around that angle.

Including the pattern of unimpeded access to weapons of war?

BTW, just saw this:

The epidemic of school shootings is a uniquely American problem. From 2009 to 2018, there were 288 school shootings in the United States. The country with the second-highest number? Mexico, which recorded eight."

https://s2.washingtonpost.com/camp-rw/

Do you honestly believe that every other country in the world has cracked the code and that this code has nothing to do with easy access to firearms?