Crash the train to stop it

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

I asked you earlier, and I'll ask again: are there any Dems in the Senate, or the House for that matter, that would support - when it matters, with votes - for a logical plan for balancing the budget for the long haul?

The GOP controls the House where budgetary bills originate and they have no intent whatsoever of proposing a logical plan for balancing the budget. Indeed, they'd rather threaten to blow up the US and world economy than propose any plan. To wit:

Financial Services Committee Chairman Patrick McHenry on Tuesday privately warned fellow House Republican leaders to be reasonable and realistic as they demand federal spending cuts in exchange for raising the nation’s debt ceiling, a person familiar with the discussion said.

McHenry, who has emerged as a critical player in the House’s narrow GOP majority, warned Republicans of the ramifications of a catastrophic debt default, arguing that behaving recklessly could lead to the US losing its position as the world’s dominant reserve currency.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-ceiling-talks

Meanwhile, the leading candidate in GOP for the 2024 presidential nomination just said last Friday "Under no circumstances should Republicans vote to cut a single penny from Medicare or Social Security.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...rity-medicare/

So, tell me again how it is that it is Democrats screwing up the works when it comes to a balanced budget.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The GOP controls the House where budgetary bills originate and they have no intent whatsoever of proposing a logical plan for balancing the budget. Indeed, they'd rather threaten to blow up the US and world economy than propose any plan.

I should point out the obvious here: there's absolutely no way that you could know that. That would indicate you have insight on the GOP's bargaining strategy and legislative strategy, and a couple of quotes from WaPo don't come close to giving that to you.

Originally Posted by finnbow

So, tell me again how it is that it is Democrats screwing up the works when it comes to a balanced budget.

https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-debt-ceiling/

The White House is refusing to negotiate with Republicans on raising the debt ceiling, a risky position that Democrats think is a political winner, but that also reflects their scars from previous fights.

Taking the position that you won’t negotiate will allow Republicans to argue that a refusal by the White House to discuss spending cuts amid a rising debt crisis means President Biden is not acting in the public’s interest.

Yes, we're on track to see that everyone's interests are served and the beneficiary is that US taxpayer. Playing politics with the debt ceiling with the belief that you'll win a political victory and not have to worry about reigning spending is obviously the best approach. And if you believe that, I've got some swamp land you might be interested in...

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

[I]The White House is refusing to negotiate with Republicans on raising the debt ceiling, a risky position that Democrats think is a political winner, but that also reflects their scars from previous fights.

The White House is absolutely right about its course of action. One does not negotiate with people who passed the bills that obligated and spent the funds and then refuses to pay the bills for the spending that they already approved.

Try that with your credit card company. Buy a bunch of stuff this month and at the end of the month simply refuse to pay the bill unless they reduce the amount you owe them. See how that works out for you. It will ruin your credit rating just as the GOP's stunt threatens to ruin ours.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The White House is absolutely right about its course of action. One does not negotiate with people who passed the bills that obligated and spent the funds and then refuses to pay the bills for the spending that they already approved.

Why is that? Do you think a CEO, CFO and COO don't make hard decisions in the middle of a fiscal year if expenses exceed revenues? In fact, they likely would have a fiduciary obligation to the shareholders to do so.

Why is the Federal Gov't somehow immune to the same logic and sound fiscal discipline?

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Try that with your credit card company. Buy a bunch of stuff this month and at the end of the month simply refuse to pay the bill unless they reduce the amount you owe them. See how that works out for you. It will ruin your credit rating just as the GOP's stunt threatens to ruin ours.

Using your analogy: Buy a bunch of stuff that you don't really have the money to cover, make the minimum monthly payment on the balance, and the let the interest accrue on the balance each month. That's very much like what our Federal Gov't is doing.

Your credit card company will let you get away with that for a while, but your credit card company has a credit limit that is part of the agreement that you have with the credit card company. The US Gov't has the 14th amendment and the Public Debt Acts.

But just like your credit card, there are limited ways to pay down the balance and get back under the Federal debt limit. There's a responsible way to do it: reduce spending and use the funds to pay down legal obligations.

Then there's the way our Federal Gov't does it, which you are apparently a fan of they do the equivalent of calling the credit card company and getting the credit limit increases, while at the same time borrowing more money to pay legal obligations, but don't cut spending at all. In fact, make sure you increase it, so you can repeat the above exercise damn near every year.

Idiocy.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Using your analogy: Buy a bunch of stuff that you don't really have the money to cover, make the minimum monthly payment on the balance, and the let the interest accrue on the balance each month. That's very much like what our Federal Gov't is doing.

Your credit card company will let you get away with that for a while, but your credit card company has a credit limit that is part of the agreement that you have with the credit card company. The US Gov't has the 14th amendment and the Public Debt Acts.

But just like your credit card, there are limited ways to pay down the balance and get back under the Federal debt limit. There's a responsible way to do it: reduce spending and use the funds to pay down legal obligations.

Then there's the way our Federal Gov't does it, which you are apparently a fan of they do the equivalent of calling the credit card company and getting the credit limit increases, while at the same time borrowing more money to pay legal obligations, but don't cut spending at all. In fact, make sure you increase it, so you can repeat the above exercise damn near every year.

Idiocy.

I am all for cutting spending and negotiations/legislation leading to that goal. However, threatening to not extend the debt limit is not negotiating. It is extortion, plain and simple, with the credit worthiness of the US on the line. This stunt, if allowed to go to fruition, will cost the country and its citizens far more that it will purport to save.

Idiocy.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I am all for cutting spending and negotiations/legislation leading to that goal. However, threatening to not extend the debt limit is not negotiating. It is extortion, plain and simple, with the credit worthiness of the US on the line. This stunt, if allowed to go to fruition, will cost the country and its citizens far more that it will purport to save.

Idiocy.

This "stunt" is an effort to negotiate. You could also call refusing to negotiate a "stunt". It's a political strategy being pursued by the Dems, but you want to make it sound like Biden and company are "standing on principle". They're not, and you're deluding yourself for thinking that they are.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

This "stunt" is an effort to negotiate. You could also call refusing to negotiate a "stunt". It's a political strategy being pursued by the Dems, but you want to make it sound like Biden and company are "standing on principle". They're not, and you're deluding yourself for thinking that they are.

One cannot negotiate over spending that has already occurred, particularly when different factions of the GOP have already said that Social Security, Medicare, and Defense spending are off the table as well as those who say that they won't vote for extending the debt limit even it contained every single one of their priorities. How do you negotiate with that? It's all a ploy to get the Democrats to cut spending on programs that Republicans are too frightened to suggest cutting themselves.

In short, it's fine to negotiate over the budget. It's not fine to negotiate over whether or not to pay your bills for spending already incurred. You're obviously too far in the bag for the wingnuts that you're unable to recognize their bad faith.

[Dondilion]

It is posturing from both sides. Everyone is afraid to take a serious look at social security/medicare..
As to the military industry so many constituents feed from it that it has become a sacred cow.

So this is a regular show. In the meantime the country is trapped in inertia.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

It is posturing from both sides...

Actually, it's not. Democrats have never once used the debt limit to extort demands that they otherwise were unwilling to propose. The Republicans like to portray themselves as the party of fiscal responsibility, law enforcement, the military, patriotism, personal responsibility and moral rectitude. The past 6 years have shown this to be total bullshit. They are none of the above. They're performance artists driven by anger, lies and innuendo who have no interest whatsoever in governing.

To wit:

The House GOP is "insisting on yet-unspecified spending cuts in exchange for their support, a posture the party didn’t take during the presidency of Donald Trump when the limit was raised three times."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...-debt-default/

They just want to gum up the works and create chaos for the Biden administration, not caring about the damage they do to the US and world economy.