What do you think about Chaz in Seattle?

[Pio1980]

Originally Posted by Not Insane

Sorry, I should be clear: There is something "wrong" with all man made systems. It's all relative. It's why it cracks me up when people look at any president and look at his disapproval numbers as though it proves they can't win re-election. That may be true if they were running against Jesus, but none are.

You don't have to outrun the bear. You just have to outrun your camping buddy. That goes for presidents and economic/social systems. Capitalism is by far the most efficient and successful at improving the condition of man. Nothing else coms close.

Again, the Adam Smith quote gets to the point.

And our current system has more in common with fascism than capitalism. When the government tells you the minimum you have to pay people and whom you have to hire based on sex and race, that's textbook Fascism. How's that working out for us?

Probably better than the fascism that has business directing political process unchecked.

[Not Insane]

Originally Posted by Pio1980

Probably better than the fascism that has business directing political process unchecked.

That's not fascism. That is cronyism. And it exists in all systems in various forms. A lot of people don't understand this, but just as a starving person thinks everybody is motivated by food, average people think the rich are motivated by money.

The rich are motivated by power - and much of that power is desired simply to ensure they will keep their money, stuff and lifestyle. Sometimes it is power to control other people. That is where the soshulists and Fascists come into the game.

And I'll just throw this out: Crony Capitalism is an oxymoron. They are mutually exclusive.

[Pio1980]

Originally Posted by Not Insane

That's not fascism. That is cronyism. And it exists in all systems in various forms. A lot of people don't understand this, but just as a starving person thinks everybody is motivated by food, average people think the rich are motivated by money.

The rich are motivated by power - and much of that power is desired simply to ensure they will keep their money, stuff and lifestyle. Sometimes it is power to control other people. That is where the soshulists and Fascists come into the game.

And I'll just throw this out: Crony Capitalism is an oxymoron. They are mutually exclusive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[Not Insane]

Originally Posted by Pio1980

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

I've been there lots of times - and it is found wanting as are all controversial subjects in Wiki. I've been a student of Fascism since I started studying WWII in 1967 and became fascinated by the personalities involved, from Hitler to Stalin, Tojo, Roosevelt, Chruchil, Benito Mussolini, et al.

And that got me into the type of government "enjoyed" by the citizens of each nation in the axis.

Fascism was the most interesting, frankly, because of the "partnership" between government and private industry.

[donquixote99]

"That's not fascism. That is cronyism."

No-true-Scotsman fallacy.

[Not Insane]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

"That's not fascism. That is cronyism."

No-true-Scotsman fallacy.

That's why I don't use it.

For what it's worth, some could argue that any and all government regulation is fascism. That's kinda like saying that public roads are Soshulism.

[Waggs098]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

So that was the point? That the movement contains so*ialists? One, I am hardly shocked. So*ialism is not a dirty word to me. So*ialism is a very vast array of ideas, actually. It is hardly an exaggeration to say there are about as many kinds of so*ialists as there are so^ialists*ts. Rather few are like Pol Pot, especially around here.

What unites the so*ialiststs I think, if anything does, is the basic notion that ownership rights are not the supreme value for any society, that owners, especially owners of huge great amounts of the economy, should have to let government and other stakeholders (employees, the public) have a say in what they do. And likewise, the surplus (you can think 'profits') do not automatically ALL belong to the owners. As I was saying, there are endless variations and elaborations, some much more radical than others, on these basic ideas.

I'm not very radical at all, I like the enterprise and innovation of good capitalists, and I recognize the stagnation and inefficiency that often plague enterprises that are shielded from competition and market forces. But modern oligarchical capitalism is extremely 'public be damned' in its attitudes and actions. Unchecked power always goes exploitative and dysfunctional. Read my thread on "Why Did We Lose Sparta" for an example. Enterprises should have to seek permission of regulators, I say, rather than just decide totally on their own, to take huge-impact actions like closing major plants. The bad results of Phillip's irrational decision (they lost huge amounts of money) show they do not DESERVE unchecked power.


* BTW, have to spell so*ialsm with an * on this board because someone a long time ago coded a thing to insert a ton of ***************** in place of a string of letters contained in so*ialist. It was an anti-spam measure, and now it's sort of hard to fix and management can't be bothered.

No the point was the protestors found out they were told to leave and moved to the mayor's house to protest there. The mayor address was not supposed to be known. Someone led them there and it upset her.

I posted 2 articles from the blaze and of course got hammered so I decided to find an article from a different source. While the article goes into many other things I didn't care about.

[donquixote99]

The Mayor outed a bunch of people, so the Mayor got outed. Don't think the mayor's locale was actually a secret in any event. The author of this account found on FB indicates there was also a protest there three years ago....

Regarding the 2 St. Louis attorneys brandishing weapons at peaceful BLM protesters...
Rev. Kim Mason
First Unitarian Church
Waterman & Kingshighway
Saint Louis, Missouri
"The events of last night’s protest in St. Louis has gone viral, resulting in a variety of news stories and internet memes. As someone who was present, I want to respond to fallacies that have made their way into the news.
In response to a recent action by the mayor of St. Louis, activists in the city targeted the St. Louis neighborhood known as the Central West End, where the mayor lives. The congregation I serve is located in the Central West End as well - and has been since 1917. The Central West End, once visible proof of suburban white flight with many abandoned and neglected buildings, is now an urban hot spot in the city with increasing development and trendy shops and restaurants.
As a minister serving in the Central West End, and as a participant in recent protests within the city, I attended last night’s protest as well.
The event began at a major business intersection of the Central West End. It then moved onto Kingshighway, a main north-south thoroughfare of the city. After stopping traffic at two intersections, the protest then moved north on Kingshighway, passing gated communities on either side of the street. I was on the western edge of the street when a participant began trying door handles of the side gates on various streets. The gates to these streets are characterized by large ironwork double gates for cars to pass through and small side gates for people to pass through. Several of the gates were locked, when on one street, the gate opened.
Upon realizing they could access this gated community, protest organizers encouraged the majority of protesters to continue north on Kingshighway and for a smaller group to pass through the gate into the private community.
To be very clear here - the gate was unlocked and the protesters had to pass through the opening single file. The protest split, the larger group continuing to move north and a smaller group gathering at the gate to pass through. I remained stationary on Kingshighway, just north of the gate. As people passed through the gate organizers directed protesters to stay on the street and off of people’s lawns. A bit of a bottle neck formed at the gate but then word filtered back that the residents of the first house on the street were standing on their front porch pointing guns at protesters.
Upon hearing this, I headed one block north to the church where members and staff were waiting. Three years prior police responded to a protest at the mayor’s house by kettling participants and spraying them with tear gas. The church was prepared with food, water, masks and hand sanitizer on the chance that police would respond similarly. Upon hearing that residents were brandishing guns at protesters, security in the area, including police in two unmarked SUVs across from the church, chose not to respond.
The main phalanx of the protest turned and traveled down the street in front of the church and then around the corner to the mayor’s house where they proceeded to sing, chant, and make speeches before sitting down and occupying the street. This was not a 'peaceful' protest. It was loud and it was disruptive. And throughout the five plus hours of protest it was non-violent - as evidenced by more than one neighbor who came out on the street and watched the protest while holding a drink.
Chants included statements such as
'If we don’t get no justice, they don’t get no peace,'
'Black Lives Matter,'
'What do we want? Justice! When do we want it? Now!'
'Respect Us or Expect Us!'
The couple that responded to protesters with guns are two wealthy and powerful attorneys. They are telling a story that includes a mob of protesters breaking down and destroying a wrought iron gate, brandishing weapons, and threatening to kill them. Their account is simply not true. What did happen is that two privileged people had their complacency disrupted and responded with violence. What did happen is that two white people threatened a group of non-violent black people with guns and the police chose not to respond. The public outrage over the actions of this couple is gratifying. The memes are amusing. But y’all, I invite you to think instead of all the times someone called the cops to report a person of color with a gun and they DID respond.
Tamir Rice’s 18th birthday was last Thursday. May he rest in power."
Rev. Kim Mason
First Unitarian Church
Waterman & Kingshighway
Saint Louis, Missouri

[Chicks]

Originally Posted by Waggs098

The mayor address was not supposed to be known.

Don't know about Missouri, but around here, everyone's address is a matter of public record. I expect it's the same way there, too.

[Chicks]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

The Mayor outed a bunch of people, so the Mayor got outed. Don't think the mayor's locale was actually a secret in any event. The author of this account found on FB indicates there was also a protest there three years ago....

Calls for resignation mount after St. Louis mayor releases names of individuals calling for police reform

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/us/st...orm/index.html

Hundred of protesters marched to the home of St. Louis Mayor Lyda Krewson Sunday night while chanting "resign Lyda, take the cops with you," according to CNN affiliate KMOV.

The demonstration came after Krewson read the names and addresses of people calling for police reform during a Friday afternoon Facebook live video, the affiliate reported.

Karma, you b*tch!