GOP Poisons Flint Michigan

[whell]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Yes, I read it. Did you?

There is no mention anywhere in the article where the lead found in children from other locales came from.

Sure there is.

"In much of the state where lead is a problem, the source of poisoning has been the traditional culprits: old lead paint on homes built before 1978 and lead residue in dust and soil. Young children are particularly susceptible because of their proximity — on the ground — to the most common sources of lead. They crawl on their hands, pick up dust and dirt and put their hands in their mouths."

Originally Posted by Boreas

Neither is there any mention of the lead levels found in the drinking water of those other cities as compared to Flint.

Nor was that the point of the article. The article is simply giving perspective to the lead levels that have been found in the kids in Flint compared to other MI cities.

Originally Posted by Boreas

Frankly, I think the article is deliberately deceptive.

Of course it is.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Yes, I read it. Did you?

There is no mention anywhere in the article where the lead found in children from other locales came from. Neither is there any mention of the lead levels found in the drinking water of those other cities as compared to Flint. Also, the article speaks of higher lead levels in certain zip codes in those other cities but it doesn't compare the lead levels in those cities as a whole to the levels in Flint as a whole.

Frankly, I think the article is deliberately deceptive.

The Detroit News, a historically-conservative paper, is now owned by a hedge fund, does not own a printing plant, and faces a very shaky future as a print newspaper. It's economic duress offers a reason why it's integrity as a news source may be viewed as highly questionable.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ite-free-press

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by whell

Sure there is.

"In much of the state where lead is a problem, the source of poisoning has been the traditional culprits: old lead paint on homes built before 1978 and lead residue in dust and soil. Young children are particularly susceptible because of their proximity — on the ground — to the most common sources of lead. They crawl on their hands, pick up dust and dirt and put their hands in their mouths."

I read that. It's a general statement about the source of lead poisoning in Michigan and, really, could be about any place. In fact, by pointing to other sources for lead pollution, it deliberately diverts attention away from the crimes of Snyder and his lackeys.

We're talking about lead poisoning where, as in Flint, the public drinking water is the source. Tossing vague and incomplete information about the prevalence of lead poisoning elsewhere which may or may not come from public drinking water is a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters. (pun intended)

[whell]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

It's economic duress offers a reason why it's integrity as a news source may be viewed as highly questionable.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ite-free-press

So, the New York Times is no longer credible )'cuz last I heard their finances were in the crapper too)? Hell, printed news outlets everywhere have been under "economic duress" for years now. Are they all "highly questionable" news sources?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by whell

So, the New York Times is no longer credible )'cuz last I heard their finances were in the crapper too)? Hell, printed news outlets everywhere have been under "economic duress" for years now. Are they all "highly questionable" news sources?

Well, yes. You might say that.

Really, I don't have a lot of respect left for the "Gray Lady" but the comparison to the Detroit News is pretty silly and the suspect nature of the News has less to do with its finances than with it's long and firmly established political bias.

[whell]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I read that. It's a general statement about the source of lead poisoning in Michigan and, really, could be about any place. In fact, by pointing to other sources for lead pollution, it deliberately diverts attention away from the crimes of Snyder and his lackeys.

Crimes? Did I miss a trial where convictions were handed down?

The highlighted portion above is exactly the point. Right now we know that the water levels in Flint are "high". But exposures to lead - in Flint and elsewhere - lead to high blood levels. It doesn't look good, but it hasn't looked good for Flint kids on this topic for a while. In fact, in this article, the lead levels in tested Flint kids were higher as a percentage of those tested 3 - 4 years before the water system / source switch.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...lead/72820798/

Originally Posted by Boreas

We're talking about lead poisoning where, as in Flint, the public drinking water is the source. Tossing vague and incomplete information about the prevalence of lead poisoning elsewhere which may or may not come from public drinking water is a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters. (pun intended)

OK. Here's the data for MI to compare, including a searchable database:

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...ies_water.html

"Michigan Department of Environmental Quality records show that six private water supplies in Michigan and two municipalities — not including Flint — meet or exceed the federal limit on lead and copper in water tested at the customer tap.

Another six private and 16 municipal systems across the state, ranging in size from 25 customers to more than 120,000, tested for levels that are below the U.S. federal limit, but above safety benchmarks used by the World Health Organization, the international public health arm of the United Nations, and the Virginia Tech university team that helped blow the whistle in Flint.

Michigan cities with lead at or above the WHO benchmark include Kalamazoo, Muskegon Heights, Benton Harbor, Owosso, Ionia, Marysville and St. Louis."

Also:

"I think Flint is the tip of the iceberg," said Yanna Lambrinidou, an assistant science and technology studies professor at Virginia Tech. Lambrinidou, alongside civil engineering professor Marc Edwards, spent years researching the lead contamination that plagued Washington, D.C. between 2001 and 2004 — a major poisoning that echoes in the Flint crisis more than a decade later.

That iceberg? Millions of lead service pipes that join municipal mains to older homes in cities around the county, but primarily in the eastern U.S. and Midwest."

My point:

To lay all of this - as the title of this thread suggests - at the feet of one person (someone who was not directly involved directly in the process either) might make for fun posting on a political forum and great for selling news, but it drastically understates the scope of the issue.

For the record, I'm not happy about any of this. Flint is about an hour's drive from my house, and I've spent time there, have friends there. (I have family members that live in a Flint suburb, but they're on well water.) But I'm also convinced that lead is one of many issues that threaten kid health, and these issues have been around a lot longer than 2014, and threaten kids beyond Flint and beyond Michigan.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

To lay all of this - as the title of this thread suggests - at the feet of one person (someone who was not directly involved directly in the process either) might make for fun posting on a political forum and great for selling news, but it drastically understates the scope of the issue.

Were it not for the obstinacy and evasiveness of the Michigan DEQ and other Snyder minions, not to mention their deliberate attempts to discredit those who blew the whistle on this malfeasance (EPA, local health officials and the nation's preeminent researcher on lead contamination of municipal water supplies) and poo-poo customer complaints, I'd say you'd have a point. However, they did and therefore you don't.

This mess was avoidable and deliberate decisions by Snyder and his minions to circumvent the EPA Lead and Copper Rule led to it (and their subsequent behavior prolonged it). EPA warnings about the necessity to add phosphate to protect from the known corrosive nature of the Flint river water were ignored (as the Michigan DEQ actively tried to discredit the EPA source of these warnings).

For a guy from the party of personal responsibility, you're pretty quick to run cover for malfeasance in your state's government.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by whell

Crimes? Did I miss a trial where convictions were handed down?

I'm editorializing.

Still, it certainly looks as if crimes were committed.

The problems with the Flint River have been known for decades, yet the switch was made.

Detroit offered Flint a deal for maintaining the Lake Huron supply at a price lower than the price for Flint River water, yet the switch was made.

Either the Flint River water was tested prior to the switch and the dangers were revealed or it wasn't even tested, yet the switch was made.

Either the Governor and his emergency manager knowingly lied when they assured Flint residents that the water was safe or they had no idea whether it was or it wasn't.

After there was no longer any debate about the water's dangers, Snyder and his manager continued to obfuscate and stonewall.

[QUOTE]The highlighted portion above is exactly the point. Right now we know that the water levels in Flint are "high". But exposures to lead - in Flint and elsewhere - lead to high blood levels. It doesn't look good, but it hasn't looked good for Flint kids on this topic for a while. In fact, in this article, the lead levels in tested Flint kids were higher as a percentage of those tested 3 - 4 years before the water system / source switch.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...lead/72820798/

Doesn't address the central issue that, either through a grotesque level of incompetence or a sociopathic degree of callous indifference, Snyder and his minions allowed a switch in the Flint water system that increased the danger of lead poisoning to the people of that city. And, contrary to their original assertions, it wasn't to save money.

My point:

To lay all of this - as the title of this thread suggests - at the feet of one person (someone who was not directly involved directly in the process either) might make for fun posting on a political forum and great for selling news, but it drastically understates the scope of the issue.

The title doesn't blame one person but one party. That said, I don't think that's entirely fair. It would be fairer to lay the blame at the feet of the Snyder Administration and the political cronies he installs as Gauleiters in troubled Michigan cities.

[bobabode]

This is what happens when government is run like a business.
Thanks, Gov. 'Skeevy' Snyder.

[CarlV]

Feed them sewage and they vote Republican.


Carl