Religious Freedom Bill in Indiana.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by whell

BULL SHIT.

If I believe that killing is not moral, I can ACT in accordance with those beliefs and choose not to serve in the military, even when and if such objections are on religious grounds. I can even avoid the draft. The government can't force me to over-ride my religious beliefs or my conscience and force me to act in a way that is objectionable to me.

Therefore, if I firmly believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman, should the government be able to force me to ACT in a manner that is inconsistent with my beliefs and force me and my business to support that marriage ceremony in any way? Sounds like your answer to that question is a resounding yes. If that's the case, maybe you're not just a religious intolerant. Maybe you're just a good old fashioned fascist.

Since when is the help invited to the wedding? BTW, stop yelling Mjke, it makes you sound more unhinged than you maybe are.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

BULL SHIT.

If I believe that killing is not moral, I can ACT in accordance with those beliefs and choose not to serve in the military, even when and if such objections are on religious grounds. I can even avoid the draft. The government can't force me to over-ride my religious beliefs or my conscience and force me to act in a way that is objectionable to me.

Therefore, if I firmly believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman, should the government be able to force me to ACT in a manner that is inconsistent with my beliefs and force me and my business to support that marriage ceremony in any way? Sounds like your answer to that question is a resounding yes. If that's the case, maybe you're not just a religious intolerant. Maybe you're just a good old fashioned fascist.

A conscientious objector doesn't discriminate against anybody.

As for a licensed business owner withholding services from somebody due to their sexuality, that's an entirely different issue. The same logic would allow Catholic hotel owners to refuse accommodation to heterosexual couples who practice birth control. Should a Christian Scientist hotel owner be allowed to forbid entry for paramedics into his hotel for a customer needing medical assistance?

This whole kerfuffle is all about Right-Wing legislators wanting to throw a bone to bible-thumpers in Indiana pissed about gay marriage now being legal there.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by whell

So, who's being mistreated: an individual who is asked to take their business someplace else - which a business owner has the right to - or a business owner who is asked to subordinate their sincerely held religious views an act in a way that is against those views and against their conscience?

So if a business owner has a sincerely held religious belief that Muslims -- or Jews -- are evil and he will not do business with them, is that OK?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by whell

BULL SHIT.

If I believe that killing is not moral, I can ACT in accordance with those beliefs and choose not to serve in the military, even when and if such objections are on religious grounds. I can even avoid the draft.

First, you know what I mean but, just for fun, let me rephrase it: we are not free to act in any way we choose, even in accordance with our religious beliefs.

Now, as to avoiding the draft, sure you can apply for CO status but, if it's denied and you still refuse to serve, you are acting in a way that's contrary to the law.

The government can't force me to over-ride my religious beliefs or my conscience and force me to act in a way that is objectionable to me.

Perhaps not but they can toss you in the can. After all, we're talking about our rights under the law and the Constitution here.

Therefore, if I firmly believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman, should the government be able to force me to ACT in a manner that is inconsistent with my beliefs and force me and my business to support that marriage ceremony in any way?

Under the law of the land regarding public accommodation, yes.

If you believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman, don't marry a man. Pretty simple, really. On the other hand, if you're in business to provide a good or a service to the public, you can't pick and choose. It's like interracial marriage after Gooding v. Virginia. You may have religious objections to interracial marriage (many people do) but a legal officiant would be breaking the law by refusing to conduct the ceremony.

Sounds like your answer to that question is a resounding yes. If that's the case, maybe you're not just a religious intolerant. Maybe you're just a good old fashioned fascist.

That's me!

[bobabode]

June can't come soon enough when every state in the country, including Michigan, starts issuing gay marriage licenses. My Yooper gramps would be proud.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by whell

You would equate a sincerely held objection to a gay lifestyle to being "anti-gay", which is disingenuous as hell, just like you'd overlook the the contributions of religious individuals to abolition and civil rights advances. So you've made your idiotic opinions quite clear, RIGHT NOW.

You lie. I never equated a sincerely-held objection to a gay-lifestyle to being anti-gay. In fact, I say it's OK to be anti-gay. People can be anti-gay all week. I'm not for thought-control.

What I'm against is denying gay people services because you are anti-gay. That should be illegal. That's because the law controls behavior, what people actually do. I don't care how sincere one's belief is, you shouldn't discriminate.

Now shout BULL SHIT. And call me an idiot again. That will prove you're right!

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by whell

You would equate a sincerely held objection to a gay lifestyle to being "anti-gay", which is disingenuous as hell, just like you'd overlook the the contributions of religious individuals to abolition and civil rights advances. So you've made your idiotic opinions quite clear, RIGHT NOW.

It's none of your fucking business. Can't tolerate the concept of a gay relationship? Guess what? You don't have to have a gay relationship. As far as your freedom of religion is concerned, you have all the freedom of religion you can manage...go to fucking church and practice it where it belongs. Because it doesn't belong in the doctor's office, the research laboratory, the legislative body, or the place of business. Keep it where it belongs. Your freedom of religion has nothing to do with how anybody else lives their life, keep your pious nose out of it.

[Boreas]

Back in the Civil Rights Era, one of the hot button issues was public swimming pools. In the sweltering summers characteristic of much of the Old Confederacy and my home in Maryland, public swimming pools were the way most of us kids beat the heat and, things being as they were, there were "White Only" pools and there were "Colored" pools. (Couldn't have the Nigras polluting the white folks' water!)

Well, with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, "White Only" pools became illegal. This, of course, outraged the crackers. There was no way in Hell they were going to allow any spooks in any pool where their darling little ofay children were going to swim.

So, they fought and they fought and they fought but the law was the law and the public pools were integrated. And the pools were closed. And filled in.

Dare we hope for the same regarding these "good Christians" and their theology of hate? Imagine!

[whell]

Originally Posted by d-ray657

So if a business owner has a sincerely held religious belief that Muslims -- or Jews -- are evil and he will not do business with them, is that OK?

Just to be clear - in none of these statements have I condoned such behavior. I don't, however, believe that anyone should be compelled to act in a manner that inconsistent with sincerely - held religious beliefs.

Now, don't we have laws against discrimination based on someone's religion, ethnicity or national origin? Are you heading down a road where you're equating a lifestyle with a person's religion or ethnicity?

[whell]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

It's none of your fucking business. Can't tolerate the concept of a gay relationship? Guess what? You don't have to have a gay relationship. As far as your freedom of religion is concerned, you have all the freedom of religion you can manage...go to fucking church and practice it where it belongs. Because it doesn't belong in the doctor's office, the research laboratory, the legislative body, or the place of business. Keep it where it belongs. Your freedom of religion has nothing to do with how anybody else lives their life, keep your pious nose out of it.

It's none of your fucking business. Can't tolerate the concept of a sincerely held religious belief? Guess what? You don't have to have a religion. As far as your freedom of lifestyle is concerned, you have all the freedom of lifestyle you can manage...go to your bedroom and practice it where it belongs. Because it doesn't belong in the doctor's office, the research laboratory, the legislative body, or the place of business. Keep it where it belongs. Your freedom of lifestyle has nothing to do with how anybody else lives their life, keep your pious nose out of it.