What do you think of VA Gov. McDonnell's Confederate History Month

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by merrylander

No man has a right to own another human being, but there are degrees of ownership.

Agreed, well said.

Pete

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Really? You can swallow a rationalization of slavery?

How, precisely, do you reconcile the absolutism of "No man" and the quantification of "degree?"

I can't.

Let me try and make this clearer, you can own a man and put him in chains - not that he will get a lot of work done that way.

You can own a man by underpaying him to work in your sweatshop. When the choice is sweatshop A or sweatshop B, he is still a slave.

My Father was in the wollen mills at age twelve. Later his uncle got him into the glassworks. As soon as he could he emigrated to Canada, educated himself and went on to better things. I doubt that the owners of the woolen mills lost much sleep over the children in their mills. I also doubt that any of them ever read Elizabeth Barrett Browning's "The Children."

No one forced the plantation owners to buy slaves, just like today no one forces companies to hire illegals. The plantation owners wanted to harvest indigo but the wetlands were infested leading to a short life span, slaves were cheaper than paying good wages.

Am I justifying the practice as you seem to wish to believe? No, like Gouvernor Morris said at the Philadelphia Convenvention "Slavery is an abomination before God." All I am attmpting to show is that it takes many forms and all are based in greed.

I even insisted that the celebrant not use any reference to 'obey' in our wedding ceremony. Think back to how such a short time ago that a woman became property after marriage.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Sandy G

Here, Here !! We're ALL "owned" by the Federal gov't, the local gov't, and/or the local bank you have yr mortgage with...Just don't pay yr taxes or miss a few payments & you'll find out just how "Free" you really are...

Sorry guys. I don't even understand what you're trying to say anymore.

The requirement by the Federal Government that you actually pay taxes is equal to slavery? I'm trying, but I can't follow this at all.

Yeah, if you don't pay your taxes you're gonna get in trouble. They may even take your liberty for a time. But they won't take you away from your family forever with no means of ever being reunited. They won't beat you. They won't force you to work your entire life entirely for their benefit.

And by the way, when I say "they", of course I mean "us" since we ARE the power in a democracy. No one has any authority to make laws that we didn't collectively put in place. And why single out tax laws? Your case could be equally made against any law.

Just try and kill a guy & you'll find out just how "Free" you really are. Just beat your wife & you'll find out just how "Free" you really are. Just take a gun and hold up a liquor store & you'll find out just how "Free" you really are.

I'm still a big fan of law and order. Once again, I'll suggest that we have more liberty than just about any people on Earth. And yet there are so many here complaining that it's not enough. Much more and we're living in anarchy. Personally I'm glad that we aren't free to run around killing people or stealing property. And yeah, if we're going to agree together that we're going to be civilized and have laws then we're going to have to support the institution of government and fund it's expenses.

[Sandy G]

I respect yr opinion, as always, Ed, but as one who's sort of been on the Receiving End of the IRS' Tender Mercies, I have to disagree..My granmother was posthumously RAPED by those bilious bastards, they got something like 87% of everything she had...And this was after we'd had very expensive legal advice on "Estate Planning"...

[merrylander]

Had one of those estate planners in here a few years back, just another form of thievery IMHO. I suppose there are honest ones but they are awfully thin on the ground.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Sandy G

I respect yr opinion, as always, Ed, but as one who's sort of been on the Receiving End of the IRS' Tender Mercies, I have to disagree..My granmother was posthumously RAPED by those bilious bastards, they got something like 87% of everything she had...And this was after we'd had very expensive legal advice on "Estate Planning"...

Rightly or wrongly, I don't blame the IRS for enforcing the laws that Congress and the President passes. I personally think that a lot of the ire that is focused on the IRS is misdirected. They're just the messenger. Our tax code is an abomination and the IRS isn't to blame for it.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Rightly or wrongly, I don't blame the IRS for enforcing the laws that Congress and the President passes. I personally think that a lot of the ire that is focused on the IRS is misdirected. They're just the messenger. Our tax code is an abomination and the IRS isn't to blame for it.

And we have no one to blame for any of our laws but ourselves. Every single person who makes our laws was elected by us. We have no King. We don't have to like how things are, but to build up the false enemy of 'the government' is not productive. I don't much like 55 mph zones, but there they are and there doesn't seem to be enough opposition to them to change things. So that's how it is. I don't like it, but I'm not crying about how I have no liberty.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

So that's how it is. I don't like it, but I'm not crying about how I have no liberty.

Nor am I. I'm just trying to give credit where credit is due for the sorry state of our tax laws. I find it quite disingenuous when I hear congressmen (generally GOP) rag on the IRS, when all the agency is doing is enforcing the mess that the Congress itself created.

[Sandy G]

"Ve vere only follovink Orders..."

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Sandy G

"Ve vere only follovink Orders..."

Collecting tax revenue in accordance with the law and gassing people ain't exactly the same, methinks.