Israel has invaded Gaza...

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Thank you. We continue to disagree however. If you read article 33 and pay attention to the comments of the two Hamas officials...it's more than clear to me that killing or displacing every Jew in Israel is only a beginning step toward their goal, the same goal as ISIS and Al-Qaeda...a worldwide Islamic Caliphate where the primary purpose is to rid the world of infidels. Who would be anybody who isn't a Muslim.

Netanyahu has already stated that he can work toward a 2 state solution. That said...I have very little problem with the other points stated above. I have no problem with the Jordan river being the eastern boundary of the state of Israel. I support Israel's refusal to create sectors in Jerusalem. Or any of the rest of it. Israel is already and has already done considerably more for the Muslim population of the West Bank than the Jordanians and Palestinians did for there own people, or for the Jews when they controlled the West Bank. Not only has Israel allowed Muslims to visit their holy sites in Jerusalem and other locations in the West Bank, but actually provided for the Temple Mount to remain under the control of Muslims and to manage the site as a Waqf. As opposed to the situation on the West Bank between 1948 and 1967 when Jews were not being allowed to access to the Western Wall or any of their other holy sites, and when every Jewish cemetery in the West Bank was desecrated by the Muslim population.

So let's just keep all the history in mind when we're thinking about the situation. Israeli Jews need to be very careful about what they might relinquish in land, because they know that whatever dirt might become the Palestinian part of the 2 state solution, dirt that may contain Jewish holy sites, will be dirt they will never have access to again.

Where does it leave 4 million Palestinians you ask. It leaves them where any solution leaves them...at the mercy of whoever has control over them. Because anybody who thinks the average Palestinian's life will improve when they live in a Palestinian state controlled by Palestinian leadership is kidding themselves.

I credit you for a good, thoughtful response. I'd like to believe that Bibi is interested in a negotiated 2-state solution, but I sense a lot of what he says to the American/international public is designed to make us believe he wants some sort of solution. His actions say otherwise.

As for the second bolded statement, I doubt that many Palestinians agree with you on this. Therein lies the rub.

FWIW, here's an interesting op-ed piece by a French academic on the history and travails of Gaza.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/27/op...f-history.html

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I credit you for a good, thoughtful response. I'd like to believe that Bibi is interested in a negotiated 2-state solution, but I sense a lot of what he says to the American/international public is designed to make us believe he wants some sort of solution. His actions say otherwise.

As for the second bolded statement, I doubt that many Palestinians agree with you on this. Therein lies the rub.

FWIW, here's an interesting op-ed piece by a French academic on the history and travails of Gaza.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/27/op...f-history.html

Thank-you sir. I can use all the credit I can get hereabouts.

The article is actually excellent. I'm sure you noted that it addresses pretty much all of the history of various occupations, and offers made to the residents therein. Particularly Israel's early offer of allowing Palestinian residents to settle anywhere in the new State of Israel. Which is quite similar to the automatic Jordanian citizenship bestowed on Palestinian residents of the West Bank when Jordan annexed it in 1948.

One beef I have with this piece is in the statement about the "blockade". Since there was no blockade prior to 2007 when Hamas illegally eliminated Fatah control of the strip in the battle of Gaza. That Hamas takeover doesn't happen, and IMO a whole lot of what has followed doesn't happen. The deluge of rockets and mortar rounds began landing in Israeli neighborhoods bordering Gaza. There is no reason to believe that if Israel lifted the blockade, which was only established in an effort to stop the flow of such weaponry to Hamas, that the behavior would suddenly end...since we know what the goals of Hamas are as stated in their own charter. Nothing...IMO will stop them. And BTW - Israel was not the only Gaza neighbor who sealed it's borders in 2007. Egypt did the same and as far as I can tell, that Egyptian border "blockade" remains. Not even the Egyptians trust Hamas.

My other beef is this statement..."And yet, both Israel and Hamas still harbor elusive dreams of military victory." As far as Israel is concerned, the only "military victory" it wants is to end the Hamas attacks on it's civilian neighborhoods. I contend that the day those attacks end is when we will see the beginning of a lifting of the blockade, and other restrictions on Gaza residents. It is also the day we will see what kind of life begins to be available for Palestinians in Gaza when it's leadership stops squandering the millions of dollars in aid it receives on terrorist activities and war materiel and begins to direct all that money toward improving the lives of the residents therein. I'll believe it when I see it.

That said...I'll do my best to cool my jets on this whole fucking thing.

[finnbow]

Lest anyone believe that Bibi wants peace more than he wants land on the West Bank, read on:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...865_story.html

[Rajoo]

Don't forget, it's going to take 20 years or more to rebuild Gaza.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by BeamOn

Don't forget, it's going to take 20 years or more to rebuild Gaza.

It'll bombed again within 3 years.

[piece-itpete]

Depends, are they planning on buying rockets/digging tunnels or are they planning on helping their constituents with their billions of aid?

Those tunnels were a real threat and from what I understand heads are going to roll in Israel over them once things settle down.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Depends, are they planning on buying rockets/digging tunnels or are they planning on helping their constituents with their billions of aid?

Those tunnels were a real threat and from what I understand heads are going to roll in Israel over them once things settle down.

Pete

Whose heads?

Bibi's land grab in the West Bank really has little or nothing to do with Gaza, notwithstanding him blaming it on the murders of the three teenagers on the West Bank. His coalition's primary geopolitical objective is taking as much of Judea and Samaria as possible, and they use any excuse to do so (or sometimes no excuse at all).

[piece-itpete]

Realpolitik? Everyone knows Israel won't give up Jerusalem.

I suspect the 'land grab' (land they already won) is to show the Hamas accomplished diddly.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Realpolitik? Everyone knows Israel won't give up Jerusalem.

I suspect the 'land grab' (land they already won) is to show the Hamas accomplished diddly.

Pete

The land in question is in the West Bank, controlled by the (relatively moderate) Fatah and it isn't in on near East Jerusalem. It's near Bethlehem and has never been under Hamas control.

I guess Bibi's rationalization makes sense to those unfamiliar with a map of the region and the players on that map.

[piece-itpete]

Sorry Finn, you got me, posting off the cuff

Pete