Israel has invaded Gaza...

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

It's not as though they supported the creation of the state that you argue they should have fought for, a state that appropriated their ancestral lands 3 years later.

I did express an opinion on whose side the Palestinians were on. Why would I argue that they should fight for the side they are rooting against? Didn't intend to confuse.

[Oerets]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

There's that "stolen" language again Barney. That "UN Land Grab" language. When I hear it, there's no question in my mind that people like you and I have an unrelenting and unresolvable difference of opinion about who the bad guys are in this.

There are bad guys on both sides. I dislike violence and war. But understand it is a human failing. In the simplest terms for me and others also from the outside looking into history. The facts seem that after WWII the world either because of guilt for doing so little before the war, or not wanting the responsibility of the refugees. Allowed the seizure of Palestine through the UN.

Now this country has a dark past with the taking and displacement of peoples for lands. Just how would you feel if a letter from the UN someday arrives saying your home is now the property of the descendants (foreign nationals even or just of the faith) generations removed claiming ownerships? Then forced to live in a camp as second class citizens with little voice or rights?

I think the Israelis have better realize the Palestinians will never acquiesce nor their neighbors until an equitable arrangement is made with real concessions.



Barney

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

This conveniently overlooks the fact that Palestinian land was bestowed upon them in 1948.

What are you talking about Finn? Are you talking about the original boundaries of the partition or are you talking about the West Bank and Gaza? It's difficult enough to have a conversation with the only expert on the forum on cheerful, peaceloving Palestinians and rude, babykiller Israelis without you blurring what your actual beef is regarding the territory involved.

The bullshit I hear is that when Israel gives Gaza and the West Bank back all the conflict goes away. It's an utter contradiction of the stated goals of the PLO, Hamas, Hezbolla and all the rest...but maybe a unique expert like you is buying it. Thing is, in 1948 the West Bank and Gaza were not Palestinian land. They were Jordanian and Egyptian land. So the Israeli's were never "bestowed" the now problematic land in question. They took it from the original "occupiers" who apparently took it from the Palestinians...who apparently had little complaints about it until 1967. And they did not take either parcel until their neighbors had launched attacks on them from those places. The same friendly neighbors who again launched attacks on them 6 years later. I'm gonna say it was proven to the Israelis that giving an inch of that dirt back would be a deadly tactical error.

If you're talking about the original partition land being stolen from Palestinians...maybe you might want to council your friends from Hamas that it would be more appropriate to fire their rockets into the UN buildling than into Israeli neighborhoods full of women and chidlren.

Make up your fucking mind, Finn.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Oerets

I think the Israelis have better realize the Palestinians will never acquiesce nor their neighbors until an equitable arrangement is made with real concessions.



Barney

No question there are bad guys on both sides. However......

As long as the Palestinians put their lot in with terrorist organizations, there is no "equitable arrangement" that will deter them from their stated goal of driving every Israeli Jew into the Mediterranean. That's what Israel realizes. Why you choose to ignore it is a mystery to me.

And I have a particularly difficult time understanding it when the leadership that the Palestinian people have embraced are the zealously ideological brethren of the people who murdered 3,000 of us on a quiet, sunny September Tuesday morning in NYC. They want way, way more than dead Jews.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by nailer

Did the Palestinians fight beside the Jews when the surrounding Arab states invaded the former British Mandate to push them into the sea? I think not, they left the actual/potential combat zones rooting for their Arab brethren. Their team lost.

And "their team" actually took "their lands" in 1948. I've been providing the history of the 1948 Jordanian/Egyptian occupation of "Palestinian lands" in the West Bank and Gaza since I showed up on this forum. How there was no violent reaction to this "occupation" by Palestinians. How there was never a violent reaction from Palestinians until Israel ended the Jordanian/Egyptian occupation of "Palestinian lands" in the West Bank and Gaza. And I never got a reply containing a smidgen of integrity from anybody (outside of you, nailer), in all that time. Still waiting.

Maybe you'll have better luck than I, but I doubt it.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by nailer

I respectfully submit that my cancer metaphor was thoughtfully considered. Cancer treatments target the cancerous cells with the full understanding that healthy cells will be destroyed. Hamas is cancerous while most of Gaza is healthy.

Personally, I think Israel is heavy handed. If I were an Israeli, I might feel differently.

+1 (including your last sentence)

Although I begin to question how healthy most of Gaza is when most of Gaza continues to support the alleged "cancer". Maybe most of Gaza doesn't and is just afraid of Hamas. If I were a Palestinian, I would be afraid to oppose Hamas. It seems to me that if the Palestinians of Gaza were to support leadership that would use the money they get to improve the lives of the people therein rather than creating larger and larger arsenals of rockets and mortars...the lives of those people would improve quickly and significantly.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

The bullshit I hear is that when Israel gives Gaza and the West Bank back all the conflict goes away. It's an utter contradiction of the stated goals of the PLO, Hamas, Hezbolla and all the rest...but maybe a unique expert like you is buying it. Thing is, in 1948 the West Bank and Gaza were not Palestinian land. They were Jordanian and Egyptian land. So the Israeli's were never "bestowed" the now problematic land in question.

I'm saying that the entire land of Israel was bestowed upon them by the UN, including the land within the borders of the new Israel upon which Palestinians had lived for generations. After Palestinians fled from the dangers of the 1948 war, Israel passed a law in 1951 to appropriate their land, thereby creating Palestinian refugee camps all over the region, including Gaza.

As for stated goals of the respective parties, the stated goal of the Netanyahu coalition is to not recognize a Palestinian state on the West Bank and/or Gaza. In fact, a significant part of his coalition insist upon taking all of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), notwithstanding the fact that over 2 million Palestinian Arabs live there.

Despite your outraged responses to my posts, I'm not pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel. I'm against the status quo, which includes the inexorable construction of settlements on the West Bank and the attendant periodic "mowing the lawn" in Gaza (with our money and weapons).

Here's an interesting piece that shows it's possible to be pro-Israel, yet be against Netanyahu's policies. Strangely, it's possible to hold such views in Israel (though less so in the midst of the current war), whereas having these same views here in the USA is labelled as anti-Semitic and pro-terrorism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/op...pora-jews.html

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

+1 (including your last sentence)

Although I begin to question how healthy most of Gaza is when most of Gaza continues to support the alleged "cancer". Maybe most of Gaza doesn't and is just afraid of Hamas. If I were a Palestinian, I would be afraid to oppose Hamas. It seems to me that if the Palestinians of Gaza were to support leadership that would use the money they get to improve the lives of the people therein rather than creating larger and larger arsenals of rockets and mortars...the lives of those people would improve quickly and significantly.

Abbas and his Fatah had succeeded in in subsuming Hamas under their umbrella without giving them any seats in his government (and Fatah does indeed recognize Israel's right to exist). In a perverted sort of way, this marginalization of Hamas by Abbas/Fatah was seen as a threat to Netanyahu's agenda in that it provided a partner for peaceful negotiations over the status of the occupied territories, something Netanyahu was loathe to do.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I'm saying that the entire land of Israel was bestowed upon them by the UN...

When did the UN gift this land to Israel? IIRC the 1947 UN resolution was a recommendation to the British on how they should divide the Mandate's territory between the Jewish and Arab residents.

Originally Posted by finnbow

Despite your outraged responses to my posts, ...

Your prose tends to be inflammatory, on purpose if you ask me.

Originally Posted by finnbow

I'm not pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel. I'm against the status quo, which includes the inexorable construction of settlements on the West Bank and the attendant periodic "mowing the lawn" in Gaza (with our money and weapons).

Are you anti-Palestine or pro-Israel? Your comparing a people to a state is a tell.

Being against the status quo is a popular pastime amongst us humans. What are you for?

[mpholland]

Originally Posted by nailer

Are you anti-Palestine or pro-Israel? Your comparing a people to a state is a tell.

Being against the status quo is a popular pastime amongst us humans. What are you for?

That is akin to asking whether you are a Republican or Democrat when you are in the center. Same old arguments can and probably will ensue, especially when you are to the center and can see some good on both sides. The need for a hard line is what creates the extremism that plagues not just the US, but several countries around the globe.