18 and Dead.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Pio1980

So he dies for walking in the street and being assaulted by a rogue cop? Do you think the locals have any say in who administers their town? It appears not.

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I find it odd you would classify an officer as "rogue" for trying to do his job.

Being said, that endeavoring to do so evolved into ugliness could conceivably be traced to his situational actions but NOT once it devolved into protecting his own life once backed to his vehicle.

At that point, John Q. gets shot.

It's just the training continuum. Think of it as a lower case felony murder rule: the lawbreaker causes their own death by threatening life of an officer? Said death is NOT on the officer.

Oh, sure, potentially ugly pictures can be painted and someone might be awarded some municipality funds to make it go away but the officer keeps their job, pension, and no fault is likely to be assigned.

Why would it? The escalation to life threatening occurs the moment an officer is assaulted with even the tiniest ability to produce bodily harm.

If shots were fired in the car, that happened.

[Pio1980]

If he was actually acting in a professional manner nobody would have been shot. Good policing avoids creating a situation like this.

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[Zeke]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

And can the police drag a guy into a secret jail, go to his home, seize his 10-year-old daughter, rape her in front of the guy, and then take her out and shoot her? Are things as elastic as that?

Just trying to see if there is ANYTHING you won't condone, if the police do it.

By the way, the item described is the sort of thing that is done, by right wing law and order types, from time to time, here and there. And they think they are doing right when they do it, protecting the nation and stuff. So don't be so assured it would 'never be.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4173895.stm

As a theoretical model? I'd do that myself if it could be conclusively proven that the alternative is a fiery instant death for every human on Earth including my children. But, then, I'd probably drink myself to death after...

...I don't really know.

What I do know is that you've generated a Straw Man which I had the courtesy to answer honestly even though it has zero bearing upon the actual incident we're talking about.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Except that a shot was fired in the car. (You can't make that evidenced reality go away.)

If you assault an officer to the point they're backed into their car? You get shot.

What may have occurred before isn't terribly relevant.

The fact that the gun went off in the car does not, by itself, show where Mike Brown was, or what he was doing.

While it may be true that you get shot if you assault an officer to the point they're backed into their car, is it not also true that you may be shot if you don't?

You seem to be taking the fact that an officer shot Mr. Brown as proof that Brown needed shooting.

It's interesting that you assume things happened a certain way, without knowing, and then declare that based on your assumption, no other information (whatever it might be, you don't know) is relevant. Try to imagine my confidence in a justice system that reasons like this.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Pio1980

If he was actually acting in a professional manner nobody would have been shot.

Acting in a professional manner is addressing lawbreakers while protecting yourself and society.

Originally Posted by Pio1980

Good policing avoids creating a situation like this.

That's the most naive assertion I've read here in a long while.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

While it may be true that you get shot if you assault an officer to the point they're backed into their car, is it not also true that you may be shot if you don't?

Absolutely.

So, the best we have is available evidence.

That the shot was fired in the car is not currently under dispute, is it?

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Zeke

As a theoretical model? I'd do that myself if it could be conclusively proven that the alternative is a fiery instant death for every human on Earth including my children. But, then, I'd probably drink myself to death after...

...I don't really know.

What I do know is that you've generated a Straw Man which I had the courtesy to answer honestly even though it has zero bearing upon the actual incident we're talking about.

Argentina's Dirty War, and much other oppression by police under no effective restraint, are not theoretical. They are historical. They are real as hell.

It was someone else's 'straw man' that prompted you to explain that things are 'elastic.' I wasn't asking you if you'd do torture and murder under sufficient duress. I wasn't asking you if you'd be a Dirty War soldier. I just brought that up to show how bad the forces of 'law and order' can get.

And in light of that, I ask my question again. Is there anything you won't condone, if the police do it?

[Pio1980]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Acting in a professional manner is addressing lawbreakers while protecting yourself and society.



That's the most naive assertion I've read here in a long while.

Your defense of police state tactics is comforting to those of us who have been victimized by them, should I send sheriff Arpaio a heartfelt thank-you note for my family?

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[4-2-7]

I think I have a lot more respect for ZeKe.
If for nothing more than the patients of working with some I have a lot less respect for since this thread started.

Tom Joad
DQ

Not that I could ever have respect for Tom thou..

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Absolutely.

So, the best we have is available evidence.

That the shot was fired in the car is not currently under dispute, is it?

All account's I've heard put the gun in the car when the first shot was fired.

As I said, this does not tell us Mike Brown's position when the first shot struck him, or what he was doing at that time, or anything about what the officer was doing, other than that he fired his gun.