Israel has invaded Gaza...

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

You got your "facts" I got mine.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

I'm quoting a famous fellow, but let's just take it at face value.

[BlueStreak]

"Under the spreading Chestnut Tree, where I saw you and you saw me."

Okay, so we have all seen each other and no one is going to change.........

Dave

[JJIII]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

"Under the spreading Chestnut Tree, where I saw you and you saw me."

Okay, so we have all seen each other and no one is going to change.........

Dave

Oh, but we have changed. Politicalchat started as a place where we discussed ideas and philosophies and now much of it is personal insults and name calling. IMO, the reason so many good posters have left. It's a damn shame.

[finnbow]

Here's an interesting lament on the current state of Zionism from an espoused Zionist.

I am a Zionist because the story of my forebears convinces me that Jews needed the homeland voted into existence by United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947, calling for the establishment of two states — one Jewish, one Arab — in Mandate Palestine. I am a Zionist who believes in the words of Israel’s founding charter of 1948 declaring that the nascent state would be based “on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel.”

What I cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians like Salam Fayyad in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children.

Is this fellow, like anyone else sharing his opinion, anti-Semitic?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/op...s-in-gaza.html

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

When did Zionists start moving into Palestine? How did they act when they did it? I know the story is they just occupied empty land after buying it from guys in Turkey. Do you believe that?

There have always been Jews in "Palestine." The history of "Palestine" is one of endless occupations by various tribes of people. The history goes back way past any occupation by the Turks. I understand it's not convenient history for you Zionism = racism types, or for the Zionism = Nazism types like Zeke. But that's just too goddamn bad.

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Jews and Muslims used to get along fine in Iraq, and Iran, and Syria, and Egypt, and all over the place. Did that change BECAUSE THEY WE JEWS? So did they become Jews in 1947? What were they before?

Before? Before, Jews were handy infidels to have around in Iraq, Iran, and Syria. They got along fine (if you consider tolerating somebody you consider to be scum as "fine") prior to any suggestion that any dirt actually belonged to any Jews. Once Jews became property owning neighbors...then they weren't so fine.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Here's an interesting lament on the current state of Zionism from an espoused Zionist.

I am a Zionist because the story of my forebears convinces me that Jews needed the homeland voted into existence by United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947, calling for the establishment of two states — one Jewish, one Arab — in Mandate Palestine. I am a Zionist who believes in the words of Israel’s founding charter of 1948 declaring that the nascent state would be based “on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel.”

What I cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians like Salam Fayyad in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children.

Is this fellow, like anyone else sharing his opinion, anti-Semitic?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/op...s-in-gaza.html

Roger Cohen has his opinion. There are lots of opinions, you got yours, I got mine, all gods children got opinion. If Roger Cohen wants to be a guilt ridden Zionist, that's Roger Cohen's business, not mine. It's easy to be a guilt-ridden Jew...nobody does guilt better than Jews, although the Irish are a close second. Roger Cohen has his history, good for him. Roger Cohen leaves out plenty of the local history of the partition of Palestine...it's convenient for Roger's guilt, I guess. Most important to me when he starts blubbering about grabbing all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, is how it came about that Israel felt the need to occupy the West Bank. The Hussein family says Hussein did not want to go to war with Israel in 1967, but he did it anyway...under "duress", his people insist. Who gives a shit...he attacked Israel.

In 1967, Jordan invaded Israel from the West Bank that they had illegally occupied since 1949 (with nary a peep outta any of the same people who have been terrorizing Israelis for 6 decades)...Israel drove them out, and drove them all the way to the East Bank. And Israel said to itself...Jordan is never gonna invade this country from the West Bank again. Not that the Armistice of 1949 lines were ever honored by Israel's friendly neighbors who only want peace anyway. Qalqilya on the eastern most edge of that armistice line is 8 miles from the Mediterranean. Eight miles to militarily cut the Nation of Israel in half. Roger Cohen apparently doesn't consider that to be an issue even though Israel has already been invaded from that area. Although Israel continued to suffer from terrorist activities from that area for decades thereafter. If Hussein had just told Nasser to take a hike in 1967, it's likely the history of the West Bank would have been completely different. Palestinians would still be meekly demanding their West Bank land from the royal house of Jordan, and still perping terrorism on Israel. Because it's not the West Bank or Gaza...it's Jews having ownership of any dirt in "Palestine".

In a poll from a few days ago, 86% of Israelis oppose any cease fire with Hamas. I suppose that means 86% of Israelis are bloodthirsty babykilling nazis, eh? Actually what 86% of Israelis are, is fearful of the next holocaust...which has been promised them by Hamas and their other peaceful neighbors.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Easy for you to say when the deal is that only yours are facts and anybody else's are opinions.

Too bad you people aren't up to providing any historical basis for your "facts" that goes any further back than 1967. There were Jews living in the "holy land" for centuries before there was an Islami religion. Probably in the neighborhood of 25 centuries before Islam.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Easy for you to say when the deal is that only yours are facts and anybody else's are opinions.

But you don't have ANY facts.

So, is the IRA just a bunch of freedom fighters or do you want them wiped out like so many Palistinians?

Are you an apologist for both oppressors or just the ones that suit you?

You have ZERO intellect in ANY of your pseudo arguments.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Here's an interesting lament on the current state of Zionism from an espoused Zionist.

"I am a Zionist ..."

Is this fellow, like anyone else sharing his opinion, anti-Semitic?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/op...s-in-gaza.html

Actions speak louder than words.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Actually what 86% of Israelis are, is fearful of the next holocaust...which has been promised them by Hamas and their other peaceful neighbors.

For something to be considered a threat I believe that the one making the threat has to have at least some remote possibility of actually carrying it out.

Hamas threatening to wipe Israel off the map is about like Gary Coleman (when he was alive) threatening to kick Ken Norton's ass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncQbAHunyZ8