Israel has invaded Gaza...

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

You just don't get it...do you. It's my utter privilege to express the opinions I have based on the experience I have. Opinion based on personal experience is all anybody, including you has. If you don't like the exercise of expressing the privilege of one's opinion...WTF are you doing here?

"Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion." - Democritus

Complete straw-man argument. I never once told you to shut up.

My issue is with the content of your opinion, not with the fact that you expressed it. I see 'it's personal' as an excellent, virtually impregnable defense of your position, but one that works through mere a priori refusal to admit that any critic could possibly have an opinion that matters.

Indeed, I can't see how you have a valid objection to Zeke's labeling of you as 'unanalytical,' in as much as you've told us your opinion is rooted in emotional trauma, not analysis.

Be assured you are completely welcome to express your personal opinion all you want. I'll even offer some empathy regarding your response to the affecting events you mention. But I resent the the implication that contrary opinions, on a talking site, are ruled-out in advance. And even more I resent your question 'WTF are you doing here?' Like, who's telling who to shut up?

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by finnbow

If an occupying force is justified in annihilating resistance within a walled-off ghetto (which Gaza certainly is by any definition), I suppose Jews who support Israel's current action should also endorse Nazi actions in putting down the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (Germans suffered 110 dead while ghetto occupants suffered 13,000 dead). The ratio isn't that far off the Israeli vs. Palestinian body counts in the current Gaza conflict. You can't have it both ways.

Well, you see Pat, when people believe that "Might makes right.".......so long as it's their "might" doing the making...................

Dave

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

And if any politician or newsman in the USA had the nerve to even intimate what you said, they'd be run out of town on a rail. Interestingly, one is free to have and express such sentiments in Israel, but not here.

This is a serious inquiry Finn. When you look at the history...what does the history tell you? Particularly the history of the "occupation" or "annexation" of the West Bank and Gaza. I'll tell you what it tells me, but I'd be interested in what you think, because whenever I present this information to any of my fellow lefties...it pretty much goes dead silent. Outside of jumping back to their droning about what bloodthirsty baby killers Israeli Jews turned out to be. OK...anyway...

After the 1947-1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine, the Jordanians annexed the West Bank, and the Egyptians annexed Gaza. And they held those territories until they were kicked out on their ass by the Israelis in the '67 war. At which point the State of Israel decided that they required this dirt as increased security against another attack, not by Palestinians, but by their sovereign neighbors. From '48 to '67 this "Palestinian land" was controlled by Jordanians and Egyptians. The Arab League didn't like it too much, and it was only supported by Britain and curiously Iraq and Pakistan. My study tells me the reason for this support from the Iraq and Pakistan was because they wanted to remain on tip top friendly terms with Jordan and Egypt. And even though the other members of the Arab League didn't approve...there was not a peep, or an action out of any of them to do anything about it. And...history tells us, that living conditions (outside of the city of Jerusalem) were pretty much as miserable for the Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza, as they are now. West Bank Palestinians were made citizens of Jordan at the time of the formal annexation in 1950, and because of conditions in the West Bank, a majority of the residents there actually moved to the East Bank side...mostly into Amman and it's environs.

Just prior to the beginning of the '67 war, the Israelis pleaded with Jordan to remain neutral...Jordan attacked from the West Bank on the first day of the war and within a week their forces were driven to the east side of the Jordan River. There is a serious argument from those who have actually studied the history that if Jordan had remained neutral in 1967, the West Bank would still be part of Jordan today and most of this bullshit over the Palestinian homeland on the West Bank for the past 40 years would never have happened.

The history of Gaza is a little more complicated, with Palestinian rule between 1947 and 1959 at which time the strip was officially merged into what was briefly called the "United Arab Republic." All references to an independent Gaza were abolished and Egyptian administration was officially imposed. Gaza was unilaterally annexed by Nasser. With the same outcomes of the quality of life for the residents and the shift in control after the '67 war.

My point in all of this is...what was the reaction by "Palestinians" to the occupation of "their land" by Jordan and Egypt. In Gaza there was virtually nothing. On the West Bank, the PLO was founded in 1964 to follow "armed struggle for the independence of the Palestinian people." Did the PLO begin it's violence by directing it at the occupiers of their West Bank homeland? Of course not...the began their armed struggle in 1964 with a series of terrorist attacks on civilian Israelis in territory west of the Jordanian occupied West Bank.

The fact is that there was no PLO action against the Jordanian occupiers in the West Bank, there was no Hamas, or any other "liberation" organization in Gaza taking action against the Egyptian occupiers. There was none of this shit until after it was Jews who took over control of those territories in 1967. The Arab world made it's one little peep of displeasure through the Arab League in 1950 and that was the end of it.

The Palestinian people have been subject to occupation and control of what they consider to be their land, by other countries since the end of WWII. But somehow it's only the outrage it is, as miserably as they were treated by their Arab brothers between 1947 and 1967, when it the Jews. And anybody who says that had the Palestinians taken up arms and committed terrorist acts against Jordan and Egypt, that the reaction from Jordan and Egypt would have been any less direct than it has been by Israel they're lying through their teeth. It would have been considerably worse. The PLO's West Bank land was occupied by Arabs...and the PLO decided to terrorize the Jews in Israel for christ's sake.

It's history that nobody wants to talk about.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Complete straw-man argument. I never once told you to shut up.

My issue is with the content of your opinion, not with the fact that you expressed it. I see 'it's personal' as an excellent, virtually impregnable defense of your position, but one that works through mere a priori refusal to admit that any critic could possibly have an opinion that matters.

Indeed, I can't see how you have a valid objection to Zeke's labeling of you as 'unanalytical,' in as much as you've told us your opinion is rooted in emotional trauma, not analysis.

Be assured you are completely welcome to express your personal opinion all you want. I'll even offer some empathy regarding your response to the affecting events you mention. But I resent the the implication that contrary opinions, on a talking site, are ruled-out in advance. And even more I resent your question 'WTF are you doing here?' Like, who's telling who to shut up?

Bullshit...you can resent it all you like. Since because I'm open about the fact that it's personal for me, I'm being told my opinion is irrelevant. You a mental health professional Don? You an expert on trauma? (BTW - it's not "emotional trauma", clinically there's no such mental health category as "emotional trauma".) You have anything but your lay opinion on emotional trauma driving unanylitical thought? Just say what you mean, and mean what you say Don, but try to make sure you have a smidgen of relevance behind it, eh?

As far as Zeke is concerned, his primary behavior on this forum (outside of being a blatant anti-Semite) is to tell anybody he disagrees with that their opinion sucks...with absolutely nothing behind it other than his opinion about it. What Zeke is best at is being a pompous ass.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

This is a serious inquiry Finn. When you look at the history...what does the history tell you? Particularly the history of the "occupation" or "annexation" of the West Bank and Gaza....

It comes as little surprise that religious differences play a role in this conflict (as they do in many others). Keep in mind that Palestinians supported the objectives of Egypt and Jordan back then against a common enemy. That enough is to explain the entire dynamic you refer to (the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

That said, none of this is particularly relevant to Palestinians younger than 30-40 years old. All they know is that they live in an open-air prison/ghetto and their houses are being bombed while Israel actively continues to recruit settlers to occupy further lands in the West Bank.

I'm neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian in this conflict and, if anything, I lean pretty strongly towards Israel. My son, who has lived in Tel Aviv for 2 years, has now experienced two such conflicts and has remained safe due to their technical superiority (to which he has contributed, BTW).

That said, there are 2 sides to every story and the American public only knows one side. I too only knew the one side until I visited there (for a total of 5 weeks over several trips in the past 30 years). It's far more complex than "Palestinians are evil and Israelis are righteous."

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Bullshit...you can resent it all you like. Since because I'm open about the fact that it's personal for me, I'm being told my opinion is irrelevant. You a mental health professional Don? You an expert on trauma? (BTW - it's not "emotional trauma", clinically there's no such mental health category as "emotional trauma".) You have anything but your lay opinion on emotional trauma driving unanylitical thought? Just say what you mean, and mean what you say Don, but try to make sure you have a smidgen of relevance behind it, eh?

As far as Zeke is concerned, his primary behavior on this forum (outside of being a blatant anti-Semite) is to tell anybody he disagrees with that their opinion sucks...with absolutely nothing behind it other than his opinion about it. What Zeke is best at is being a pompous ass.

Gawd, what a mess.

As you correctly observe, I am not a mental health professional. Quibbling with a common and well-understood lay term like 'emotional trauma' while ignoring the actual point, is just a dodge.

You defend your position on some issues on the basis of "It's personal," and explain that you base your position on the way you are affected by certain tragic and traumatic events. Is this a fair summary?

Zeke does seem to have gotten under your skin. What special powers enable you to determine that he is anti-Semitic? Goydar?*


*Pun on 'gaydar.' And yes I am ridiculing you here, but you rate it for the name-calling. 'Anti-Semetic' is a pretty big bomb to throw.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

And if any politician or newsman in the USA had the nerve to even intimate what you said, they'd be run out of town on a rail. Interestingly, one is free to have and express such sentiments in Israel, but not here.

Exposing this issue in the US to the full light of day would result in arousing strong public opinion to decrease our support of Israel.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

If an occupying force is justified in annihilating resistance within a walled-off ghetto (which Gaza certainly is by any definition), I suppose folks who support Israel's current action should also endorse Nazi actions in putting down the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (Germans suffered 110 dead while ghetto occupants suffered 13,000 dead). The ratio isn't that far off the Israeli vs. Palestinian body counts in the current Gaza conflict. You can't have it both ways.

If you open up the dictionary and look up the word "sophistry", you'll find this post used as an example.

[Pio1980]

If someone could convince them that any reasonable agreed accomodation is preferable to the status quo there might be some possibility of an opening. Otherwise the past is the present is the future and bare survival is the best anyone can expect.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

If you open up the dictionary and look up the word "sophistry", you'll find this post used as an example.

I understand full well the dangers of any Nazi analogy, but there are undeniable similarities between the two.

To wit, this just in:

GAZA CITY — A U.N.-run school crowded with Palestinian evacuees in the northern part of the Gaza Strip came under shelling on Thursday, leaving at least 15 people dead and more than 100 wounded, Palestinian officials said.

Several shells hit the main building and courtyard of the elementary school run by the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Beit Hanoun, witnesses and Palestinian officials said. They said the school was filled with women and children who had fled their homes to escape more than two weeks of fighting between Israel and Hamas, the militant Palestinian Islamist group that runs the Gaza Strip.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...6ed_story.html