The Cadillac tax.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by finnbow

As unpopular as it is, taxing all health benefits is the appropriate course of action. Health benefits are a form of compensation which some get and some don't. Therefore, those who don't get health care are subsidizing those that do through the tax code. Secondly, when you are getting something for free, you tend to overuse it. The problem is that McCain articulated this (correct) position in the campaign and Obama had to come out against it (along with his statement about no tax increases for those earning less than $250K).

Another perspective, however, is that those who have insurance subsidize the uninsured by paying higher costs for services, and hence higher insurance rates, to make up for ER visits and unpaid medical bills by the uninsured. Another thing is the the unions provide high value health care coverage at a lower costs through the operation of labor/management health care trusts that have just a fraction of the overhead of insurance companies because they are not run for a profit and they don't pay advertising expenses and commissions. The result of taxation would likely result in the diminution of benefits for members of organizations who have maintained benefits efficiently, and who have fought long and hard to obtain that level of protection.

Regards,

D-Ray

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Your points are valid but I'm not sure they're germane since the proposal is to tax the insurance companies and not the insureds. The insurance companies will just use it as an excuse to diddle us - again. That's why I'm not there yet.

(I do think taxing the insured was what McCain proposed but that's not what's on the table.)

John

I'm personally against the Cadillac Tax. As you say, it should be all or none. However, if nobody is taxed, those without health insurance should probably get tax credits to make up for the subsidy they are compelled to pay (in terms of income tax) to those who do get health benefits.

Truth be told, the whole notion of employer-provided health insurance is what is bogus (full disclosure - I have good employer provided coverage). It's a silly way to provide for health benefits for the citizenry. It's kind of a silly concept that has such deep roots that's is not going anywhere.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Truth be told, the whole notion of employer-provided health insurance is what is bogus (full disclosure - I have good employer provided coverage). It's a silly way to provide for health benefits for the citizenry. It's kind of a silly concept that has such deep roots that's is not going anywhere.

Now you're talkin!

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by d-ray657

Another perspective, however, is that those who have insurance subsidize the uninsured by paying higher costs for services, and hence higher insurance rates, to make up for ER visits and unpaid medical bills by the uninsured. Another thing is the the unions provide high value health care coverage at a lower costs through the operation of labor/management health care trusts that have just a fraction of the overhead of insurance companies because they are not run for a profit and they don't pay advertising expenses and commissions. The result of taxation would likely result in the diminution of benefits for members of organizations who have maintained benefits efficiently, and who have fought long and hard to obtain that level of protection.

Regards,

D-Ray

Point taken. The system is so entrenched that it's going nowhere. I know it smacks of socialism (eegads), but I think a taxpayer funded single payer system is the right way to go. The trouble is that there are winners and losers for any such huge change (and I'd likely be a loser).

BTW, I don't fault the unions at all for their stance on this, but our "system" is such a hodge-podge of inefficiency that radical surgery may be the only truly effective option. There are, however, too many entrenched interests for radical surgery to even be contemplated. So, we'll just tinker around the edges.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I'm personally against the Cadillac Tax. As you say, it should be all or none. However, if nobody is taxed, those without health insurance should probably get tax credits to make up for the subsidy they are compelled to pay (in terms of income tax) to those who do get health benefits.

Truth be told, the whole notion of employer-provided health insurance is what is bogus (full disclosure - I have good employer provided coverage). It's a silly way to provide for health benefits for the citizenry. It's kind of a silly concept that has such deep roots that's is not going anywhere.

I think that if we did not have employer-provided health insurance, we would have a single payer plan by now, but in the interim, the health of working Americans would have suffered for quite awhile before it got bad enough to spur people to action.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Grumpy]

Bottom line is it cost those of us with health insurance even more. Oh great like we aint paying enough all ready...

Soon I will be on the opposite end of this. Not insured and whats gonna happen ? I get penalized.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Bottom line is it cost those of us with health insurance even more. Oh great like we aint paying enough all ready...

Soon I will be on the opposite end of this. Not insured and whats gonna happen ? I get penalized.

It's a tough nut to crack. On the one side you have the right yelling that everything is Socialism. Then they yell "how we gonna pay for it?" They yell it far and wide until people start saying "yeah! What about that?!"

Okay, so Socialism is the work of the Devil and we can't have Universal Health Care like damn near every other country on Earth. Thanks a lot right wing. Appreciate that. But the left, wanting to do what they can and trying to respond to what they people are asking for say, okay, we'll work within the private insurance industry and make it happen. Won't be as good, but if that's what you want, fine. But to make that work you still have to get everyone in the pool. That's how it works. Everyone pays and everyone gets covered. Only we have to whittle a big hunk out for the Insurance Company because it would he Socialism otherwise. So we've fucked it up. Then they say, okay, we'll make some folks pay taxes and such, since that's how we get money and all, and *that* folks, is how we pay for it.

So the left does *exactly* what the right said they wanted. And what do they get for their effort? The right yells more.

The left isn't perfect- far from it. But on this deal they tried. They tried to get something done that would make America a better place to live. And the right, for purely political reasons, did everything they could to kill it. They didn't give a crap about Americans, they just wanted the Democrats to fail. In this case, the Republicans really screwed us. And despite it all, we *will* get reform and it *will* be a step in the right direction.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

Okay, so Socialism is the work of the Devil .

A quick look at the worlds religions would show that capitalism is the work of the devil.

just sayin

[mpholland]

Kind of reminds me of neutering your dog to keep from having grandkids. Just not quite the correct way to resolve the situation. High medical costs are the real problem here. A person should be able to afford healthcare without insurance. Between pharm. companies making billions in profits, hospitals charging 100's of dollars per minute for services, overpriced insurances (not just medical, but malpractice, litigation, etc.), and multi-million dollar lawsuits, this problem will likely never see a fit resolution. Sure, lets tax another benefit, why not? Can't get away with raising the rates on everything else that's already taxed, so lets keep creating new taxes instead of fixing the problems.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by mpholland

Kind of reminds me of neutering your dog to keep from having grandkids. Just not quite the correct way to resolve the situation. High medical costs are the real problem here. A person should be able to afford healthcare without insurance. Between pharm. companies making billions in profits, hospitals charging 100's of dollars per minute for services, overpriced insurances (not just medical, but malpractice, litigation, etc.), and multi-million dollar lawsuits, this problem will likely never see a fit resolution. Sure, lets tax another benefit, why not? Can't get away with raising the rates on everything else that's already taxed, so lets keep creating new taxes instead of fixing the problems.

Well, the right wingers won't get behind any regulation either. So there you have it. "We all agree something needs to be done" they tell us. And then they do everything in their power to make sure absolutely nothing *is* done. Really, I understand that the solution we're getting is far from perfect. But it is absolutely staggering that some progress is going to be made.