80 by 50

[piece-itpete]

Eddie, there is no doubt we're trashing the planet. Heck it's probably trashed beyond hope already.

We differ in what we can do about it. The forces and volumes in play are beyond mosts' comprehension, it amounts to terraforming - and we haven't been past the moon!

I think we should spend the money on fusion research, we'll need vast amounts of power. Heck we should've spent the stimulus on it too.

noone, is that Asimov's' human only universe, or Star Wars?

Pete

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Eddie, there is no doubt we're trashing the planet. Heck it's probably trashed beyond hope already.

We differ in what we can do about it. The forces and volumes in play are beyond mosts' comprehension, it amounts to terraforming - and we haven't been past the moon!

I think we should spend the money on fusion research, we'll need vast amounts of power. Heck we should've spent the stimulus on it too.

noone, is that Asimov's' human only universe, or Star Wars?

Pete

You characterize the task before us as bordering on the hopeless. Others have posted similar views and seem to conclude that the problem is so big that it's pointless for us to try to solve it. This is nihilistic hedonism. We really are an immature species, aren't we?

Terraforming is the modification of a planet inhospitable to Earth type life forms into one that will support and nourish them. We ain't there yet insofar as Earth is still capable of supporting us. What we need to do is take steps to ensure that things don't get any worse here and, hopefully, figure out ways to make things better.

John

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Look, nobody alive today will suffer all that much as a consequence of me driving my Hummer so what's the BFD? As for you bleeding hearts and your "future generations", there might not even be any so who the Hell cares?

John

Wow! That was just positively "wing-nut" of you, John.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You characterize the task before us as bordering on the hopeless. Others have posted similar views and seem to conclude that the problem is so big that it's pointless for us to try to solve it. This is nihilistic hedonism. We really are an immature species, aren't we?

Terraforming is the modification of a planet inhospitable to Earth type life forms into one that will support and nourish them. We ain't there yet insofar as Earth is still capable of supporting us. What we need to do is take steps to ensure that things don't get any worse here and, hopefully, figure out ways to make things better.

John

I'm all for it, so long as no one asks me to do anything or make any sacrifices, or God forbid-----pay any taxes.

Wow! That was positively "wing-nut" of me!

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Think I'll get in my 370hp, 4,100 lb Dodge and drive .75 miles to pick up a book of stamps and mail off my house payment? Hmmmm?

Dave

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Eddie, there is no doubt we're trashing the planet. Heck it's probably trashed beyond hope already.

We differ in what we can do about it. The forces and volumes in play are beyond mosts' comprehension, it amounts to terraforming - and we haven't been past the moon!

I think we should spend the money on fusion research, we'll need vast amounts of power. Heck we should've spent the stimulus on it too.

noone, is that Asimov's' human only universe, or Star Wars?

Pete

I dunno. We fucked it up easily enough and only took 100 years. Not sure why we can't put it back. We know more now than we did then.

With you 100% on fusion though.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Look, nobody alive today will suffer all that much as a consequence of me driving my Hummer so what's the BFD? As for you bleeding hearts and your "future generations", there might not even be any so who the Hell cares?

John

Yeah, screw it. Let's all get drunk and rape some women. The end is nigh. Every man for him self. Anarchey now!

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You characterize the task before us as bordering on the hopeless. Others have posted similar views and seem to conclude that the problem is so big that it's pointless for us to try to solve it. This is nihilistic hedonism. We really are an immature species, aren't we?

John, I'm not saying don't try. I love the outdoors and recognise our responsibility.

But once again, Kyoto didn't do one darn thing except make people feel better. Perhaps we should be trying something else.

And yes, in effect it's hopeless. It took humanity its' entire selfish output all these years to effect it, if indeed we are responsible for what is currently suspected (speaking directly to the current issue at hand). So a couple of (shown useless) treaties, and all will be right? Humanity as a whole is too thick. [edit: yes, we really are immature! We agree on something ]

Pete

[MikeCh]

Here is the writing that inspired my original post.
http://www.questar.com/1OurCompany/n.../UVUSpeech.pdf

I'm not saying we should do NOTHING, I'm simply asking how in the heck can anything meaningful be accomplished given our track record + expanding population + many countries coming online with their own "me generation" + global economies what they are + (insert problem here)....etc.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

John, I'm not saying don't try. I love the outdoors and recognise our responsibility.

"Love the outdoors"? Man, talk about trivializing an existential crisis!

But once again, Kyoto didn't do one darn thing except make people feel better. Perhaps we should be trying something else.

Kyoto didn't do all it could have but it accomplished more than just making us feel all warm and fuzzy. Kyoto established that there was an international consensus regarding the reality of global climate degradation and the necessity to act. That's really ground-breaking and essential before effective remediative measures can be undertaken on a sufficiently large scale.

And yes, in effect it's hopeless. It took humanity its' entire selfish output all these years to effect it, if indeed we are responsible for what is currently suspected (speaking directly to the current issue at hand). So a couple of (shown useless) treaties, and all will be right? Humanity as a whole is too thick. [edit: yes, we really are immature! We agree on something ]

Pete

It's only hopeless if we believe it to be - or if the people with a monetary stake in the status quo convince us that it is. We haven't been degrading our environment for as long as you seem to think. That didn't really begin to happen until our population numbers and our technological sophistication allowed it. That would put it about 150 years ago. We still may have time. Whether we do or not won't be known until we try - and we have to try!

John