Make Ukraine a NATO member nation...right now.

[whell]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Bullshit...bullshit...bullshit. If Putin feels like NATO is a threat, all he hs to do is leave the NATO countries alone. And back in 1991 when the Russian government was a signatory nation on the Ukraine Independence Referendum, the Russians, which includes Putin, gave up the right to dictate NATO membership, EU membership, or anything else to Ukraine.

Vladimir Putin and the stupid fucking Russian peole who support him in his war crimes, are the only one's who will be responsible for any WWIII.

Putin is interested in resurrecting the old Soviet-era "sphere of influence". The West is doing the right thing by making it hard for Putin to make headway in Ukraine. With the Ukrainians showing their will to fight, and providing them with modern weapons to defend themselves, Putin may well be denied Ukraine.

However, Putin is also not rational. There is no strategic benefit to the US to making Ukraine a NATO member. If Western European NATO members were pushing hard for it, it might be a different matter. But they're not.

So, if the US lead an effort to push for NATO membership for Ukraine, the US would be left with also having to take the lead in standing up any NATO facilities in Ukraine. No thanks.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Putin is interested in resurrecting the old Soviet-era "sphere of influence". The West is doing the right thing by making it hard for Putin to make headway in Ukraine. With the Ukrainians showing their will to fight, and providing them with modern weapons to defend themselves, Putin may well be denied Ukraine.

However, Putin is also not rational. There is no strategic benefit to the US to making Ukraine a NATO member. If Western European NATO members were pushing hard for it, it might be a different matter. But they're not.

So, if the US lead an effort to push for NATO membership for Ukraine, the US would be left with also having to take the lead in standing up any NATO facilities in Ukraine. No thanks.

It makes perfect sense for Ukraine to be welcomed into NATO after they beat the shit out of Russia, just as Finland and Sweden should be welcome now - the more, the merrier when it comes to opposing Russia's malign influence and imperial ambitions beyond Ukraine in places like Moldova, Belarus, Serbia and the Baltic countries.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by whell

Putin is interested in resurrecting the old Soviet-era "sphere of influence". The West is doing the right thing by making it hard for Putin to make headway in Ukraine. With the Ukrainians showing their will to fight, and providing them with modern weapons to defend themselves, Putin may well be denied Ukraine.

However, Putin is also not rational. There is no strategic benefit to the US to making Ukraine a NATO member. If Western European NATO members were pushing hard for it, it might be a different matter. But they're not.

So, if the US lead an effort to push for NATO membership for Ukraine, the US would be left with also having to take the lead in standing up any NATO facilities in Ukraine. No thanks.

Putin is interested in resurrecting the old Soviet-era "sphere of influence".
Yes!

Putin may well be denied Ukraine.
Putin does not want Ukraine. He could never control Western Ukraine which is Polish-centric. The aim it seems now is to occupy in mass Eastern Russified Ukraine.
Several factors make this seems possible:
There is a raging debate in Biden admin how to achieve an off ramp.
Why off ramp:- the main objective of the Ukraine shenanigans has not been achieved. That is the economic collapse of Russia leading to Balkanization.
Russia seemed to have weathered the sanction storms and benefitted immensely from Western harassed oligarchs who no longer can invest in London, New York, Paris, Miami etc.

Russia is adapting to a war economy.

The destabilization of Ukraine's neighbors due to the huge influx of refugees; especially in Poland.

The possibility of accidental WW111 conflict over Ukraine, a country that has no vital strategic interest to US.

the re-election of Erdogan.

China gains and emerges the winner.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Putin is interested in resurrecting the old Soviet-era "sphere of influence".
Yes!

Putin may well be denied Ukraine.
Putin does not want Ukraine. He could never control Western Ukraine which is Polish-centric. The aim it seems now is to occupy in mass Eastern Russified Ukraine.
Several factors make this seems possible:
There is a raging debate in Biden admin how to achieve an off ramp.
Why off ramp:- the main objective of the Ukraine shenanigans has not been achieved. That is the economic collapse of Russia leading to Balkanization.
Russia seemed to have weathered the sanction storms and benefitted immensely from Western harassed oligarchs who no longer can invest in London, New York, Paris, Miami etc.

Russia is adapting to a war economy.

The destabilization of Ukraine's neighbors due to the huge influx of refugees; especially in Poland.

The possibility of accidental WW111 conflict over Ukraine, a country that has no vital strategic interest to US.

the re-election of Erdogan.

China gains and emerges the winner.

Lay off the vodka, comrade.

[Dondilion]

Zelensky still clinging to Boris Johnson's promises is very angry. What Zelensky must now grasp is that these assurances were made when the collapse of Russia was expectant. after expending his country he now feels used and is demanding a real NATO, not an ersatz one.

However, although his grievance has merit, Zelensky should be careful and look at the experience of Diem of Vietnam.


https://www.salon.com/2023/01/07/can...e-ukraine-war/

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Putin is interested in resurrecting the old Soviet-era "sphere of influence".
Yes!

Putin may well be denied Ukraine.
Putin does not want Ukraine. He could never control Western Ukraine which is Polish-centric. The aim it seems now is to occupy in mass Eastern Russified Ukraine.
Several factors make this seems possible:
There is a raging debate in Biden admin how to achieve an off ramp.
Why off ramp:- the main objective of the Ukraine shenanigans has not been achieved. That is the economic collapse of Russia leading to Balkanization.
Russia seemed to have weathered the sanction storms and benefitted immensely from Western harassed oligarchs who no longer can invest in London, New York, Paris, Miami etc.

Russia is adapting to a war economy.

The destabilization of Ukraine's neighbors due to the huge influx of refugees; especially in Poland.

The possibility of accidental WW111 conflict over Ukraine, a country that has no vital strategic interest to US.

the re-election of Erdogan.

China gains and emerges the winner.

You and whell keep forgetting the part about how Putin is a war criminal and his crimes are supported by the Russian people.

Of course you also forget the part about the 46% of Americans who would vote to put a sociopath like Trump in the Oval Office again, because they think there might be something in it for them...so this is not surprising.

I can only imagine these two reading The Man In The High Castle and lamenting the glory that might have been...when the criminals come out on top.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

It makes perfect sense for Ukraine to be welcomed into NATO after they beat the shit out of Russia, just as Finland and Sweden should be welcome now - the more, the merrier when it comes to opposing Russia's malign influence and imperial ambitions beyond Ukraine in places like Moldova, Belarus, Serbia and the Baltic countries.

So we agree that Putin's utilization of Hitler's Sudetenland playbook in Ukraine is juat the first step in his sick plan to regain authority and control over the former Soviet block cointries.

Apparently some people approve, eh? In the wacky world of American conservatism today, Zelensky is the criminal and Putin is the freedom fighter. MAGA is the majority and the mainstream.

[Dondilion]

Without Blair and Bush, Putin is war criminal rings hollow.

The world judges who mention any such shit against US figures were threatened and nothing more was heard.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Without Blair and Bush, Putin is war criminal rings hollow...

... to Putin-huggers like you.

[whell]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

You and whell keep forgetting the part about how Putin is a war criminal and his crimes are supported by the Russian people.

I don't believe this is the case, and neither should you. Getting reliable polling data out of Russia is very elusive. More info here:

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-po...and-oppose-war

In all surveys, when answering a straightforward question, the majority of respondents support the war. Yet these responses should be treated with caution. The question “Can you freely talk about your attitude toward the actions of the country’s leadership, or are you afraid, feel uncomfortable?” when posed to the respondents of the Levada Center polls showed that among those who approve of Putin, 42 percent answered yes, while 7 percent chose the answer “afraid, feel uncomfortable.” At the same time, among those who do not approve of Putin, 18 percent said yes, while every third respondent (31 percent) chose the “I am afraid” option. In the Russian Field poll, among those who supported the “military operation,” one in six (16 percent) said they were afraid to participate in polls, while 43 percent of those who do not support the war were afraid to be polled.

It is clear that loyalists are more likely to agree to be surveyed than regime opponents. On the one hand, the data from the various independent polls are consistent and capture the dynamics of the respondents’ moods in similar ways. On the other hand, the distributions we see in the polls are highly likely to have a bias: loyal respondents are overrepresented and nonloyal respondents are underrepresented.

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Of course you also forget the part about the 46% of Americans who would vote to put a sociopath like Trump in the Oval Office again, because they think there might be something in it for them...so this is not surprising.

I'm not sold on polling data when it's almost a year and a half from the 2024 election. The polling I've seen on Trump versus other Republican candidates has Trump in the lead, but in most polls I've seen Trump still loses head-to-head with Biden.

Also, most of those polls show that nearly half of likely voters believe the country is going in the wrong direction. A lot can and probably will happen between now and November 2024 to shift those polling results.