So no matter what happens in Massachusetts tomorrow..

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

I'm starting to believe that they all are two sides of a shitty coin.

Easier said than done, but I say send them all packing and I mean all of them.

RC

Originally Posted by noonereal

agree.

Tempting and emotionally satisfying but there are some very good people in Congress with a lot of valuable experience. Their loss would end up hurting us in the long run.

John

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by Writewing

Yea thats right more of your bullshit personal attacks....dont you get bored with being a one trick pony? The difference between you and me is I participate in debate with attacks on a party and ideology while you simply attack me personally but I assure you that you immature tactics serve nothing but your own ego.

Yes indeed, it would be difficult to engage in worthwhile political discussion here if people could not resist the temptation to take part in personal attacks.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Writewing]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Please tell us in detail what their agenda is and how they plan to implement it.


John

Healthcare, Cap and Trade, Card Check, Fairness Doctrine, google it

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Writewing

Healthcare, Cap and Trade, Card Check, Fairness Doctrine, google it

That's what I thought.

You forgot putting ACORN in charge of supervising elections, one world government and confiscating all firearms.

You really don't know squat, do you? All you do is regurgitate talking point you picked up on the radio and the interwebs.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

Washington is not listening to the American people. I doubt if this election will change that for the Pelosis and Reids of the party.

Well, I can agree with you part way. Washington is not listening to the people. Near as I can tell, the Independent voters behind all this are upset about deficits. Yeah, yeah, that's an oversimplification. But that's kind of what it boils down to, isn't it?

I can get behind that. Pelosi and Reid- guilty as anyone I suppose. But really, look what's happened over the last decade. It's not like the other side was anything but worse.

It kind of sucks. Republicans gain power and they get to have their useless wars and get to fuck the rest of us while they let Wall Street make trillions. Democrats come in and want to give everyone Health Care. Then all of a sudden everyone says "how we gonna pay for it?"

So we have all the money in the world when it's for Halliburton but can't afford to give people benefits that virtually every major country on earth has.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Tempting and emotionally satisfying but there are some very good people in Congress with a lot of valuable experience. Their loss would end up hurting us in the long run.

John

California was in really bad shape when I lived there. So they voted for term limits. Now they're in really, really, really bad shape. Not a lot of motivation to fix things when you know for sure, no matter how well you do your job, you're getting fired in a few years. Let the next guy fix it. Short term grandstanding. Screw that. Maybe we should make them serve longer. You don't get out 'till you fix something.

[Writewing]

Originally Posted by Boreas

That's what I thought.

You forgot putting ACORN in charge of supervising elections, one world government and confiscating all firearms.

You really don't know squat, do you? All you do is regurgitate talking point you picked up on the radio and the interwebs.

John

I dont think ACORN is an immediate threat and I dont care about firearms, now if you have something besides your tired personal attacks let me know otherwise stop waisting my time. You are a sad little man.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Freedom for us comes at a high price. Lots of good men went down so we can do
what we do. We should be more thankful to our leaders and our fallen
brothers for allowing us to live without oppresion. We must continue to fight
the spread of camelism. I Wonder what our fallen soldiers would say to anti
war types that have no clue why their lives are as good as they are. It would
not be a pretty sight.

I fail to see what invading Iraq had to do with our "freedom." I tire very quickly of this jingoistic "defending freedom" trump-card. Had we not invaded Iraq, we would have not lost almost 5,000 brave young American men and women and wounded tens of thousands more, spent trillions of dollars, fostered anarchy that cost nearly 100,000 innocent Iraqi lives, and in the process incited Arabs to hate us all the more. If this is "defending freedom," I'll pass.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

I do also (cap and trade that is).

Being in the housing and commercial construction industry for almost 25 years now, I am very attuned to "green" efforts how many have jumped on board for profit and to conform to regulation. If you could see some of the inner workings of it, I believe you might see a lot of it as a bit of a joke. Be that as it may, jobs are jobs as long as they aren't all just built on the notion of green.

We really need to start to produce a viable product in this country soon or it's going to be government and service related jobs for all of us. If you subscribe any to the notion that government does produce a product as such, we had better start investing in the private sector.

For those of you who say, well, don't just bitch, provide some solutions I give you this...

Maybe a good place to start would be to tax the hell out of corporate entities that wish to produce products overseas and at the same time, wish to bring them back for sale here. At the same time, provide incentives to manufactures that produce a product here for sale here. This would stimulate job growth here by allowing companies who wish to play by the rules the additional capitol to grow and hire.

Maybe thats just a naive approach to things from a guy who likes to cut to the chase I'm just a guy who would like to get to the heart of the problem (some of it anyway) and deal with it accordingly.

Sorry about the somewhat off topic rant. I just can't help myself

RC

Now that I have a few minutes to digest this, I will engage in what could be a very enlightening discussion.

First, with respect to cap and trade, I have a fundamental issue with the idea that an appropriate resolution for issues of environmental degradation is to buy, sell and trade licenses to pollute. (Assuming that the best available science is accurate in projecting environmental effects of various enterprises.)

I agree that "green" has been overused and abused. When public awareness of environmental issues increased, even if on a very superficial level, the green paintbrush became a very useful tool for those in the marketing business. I do believe, however, that the increasing level of energy consumption, and the increasing level of dependence on foreign oil are very real environmental and economic issues. Support for the development of commercially viable products that decrease energy consumption is the type of investment that will pay long term dividends. There will always be those who want to collect those dividends without the investment, but that shouldn't result in wholesale rejection of technologies that reduce energy consumption.

To provide some purely anecdotal evidence, we have taken two significant steps in reducing energy consumption (besides shipping the boys away to school). We replaced almost every light bulb in the house with the CFDs. Within a few months, we noticed about a $10 per month decrease in the electric bills. By necessity we replaced our old furnace and air conditioner with a heat pump and much more efficient gas furnace. Because we had our bills on average pay, the decrease in the bills was gradual. Now, after two years, even with increased energy rates, our gas and electric bills are about 60% of what they were. Multiply that experience by thousands of homes, and we would see a substantial reduction in energy consumption.

Next, I agree that we need to again invest brain power in making the best products possible, and to make that a priority over making the most money possible. Those of us who are fans of vintage audio see what happens to products when the bean counters prevail over the product designers. Obviously, a big part of the shift was in response to consumer demand and to price competition. Consumers seem either satisfied with or addicted to cheap, throw-away products. They don't think about spending more to buy five different generations of a crappy product manufactured overseas, when the life of one well-made product could be extended by paying a local repairman. Who else here is old enough to remember when the TV repairman made house calls?

I don't mean to take too much pleasure in seeing one, who often takes a conservative point of view, use the phrase "tax the hell out of . . . " I really couldn't agree with you more that corporations should not profit from taking productive capacity out of the United States. How many corporate bosses received obscene bonuses as a result of ripping the livelihood from hundreds or thousands of American workers under the guise of cost-cutting?

I hope you don't mind my coloring your completely pragmatic ideas with a little lefty rhetoric. (And, yes, I realize that it is unfair and inaccurate to label you as a conservative, liberal or any other limiting term) Although it was necessary for me to maintain proper decorum, when I read your kwityerbitchen suggestion, my mind, at least was yelling yes, yes.

Regards,

D-Ray

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

California was in really bad shape when I lived there. So they voted for term limits. Now they're in really, really, really bad shape. Not a lot of motivation to fix things when you know for sure, no matter how well you do your job, you're getting fired in a few years. Let the next guy fix it. Short term grandstanding. Screw that. Maybe we should make them serve longer. You don't get out 'till you fix something.

It really is a catch 22, isn't it. On the one hand, professional politicians are the most effective, and on the other hand, professional politicians are the most effective. They can be very good at doing well for the country, but they are all very good at doing well for themselves.

Regards,

D-Ray