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#851
12-01-2014, 08:54 AM
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It's a real issue, as is the use of loaded words in politics to help evoke desired reactions. Both sides do it, Dave, though the GOP seems to do it better. What is clear that nearly everyone who receives some some of government benefit believes they're entitled to it, but that others aren't - just like Teabaggers who want the government to "keep its hands off of my Medicare."
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As long as the roots are not severed, all will be well in the garden. Last edited by finnbow; 12-01-2014 at 09:04 AM. 
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#852
12-01-2014, 09:01 AM
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"Let’s have this conversation. Let’s talk about race. We know it’s going to be awkward, no matter how well-intentioned. We know it makes both blacks and whites uncomfortable. We know that it’s fraught with 238 years of history, most of it a sad, sorry legacy of aggression, domination and persecution by whites against a people who — it must never be forgotten — originally were brought to the new country to be put in bondage and servitude. Not much of a welcome. Emancipation was declared in 1863, but it wasn’t accompanied by any kind of economic justice. Too many Americans believed that the black race was inherently inferior. Vestiges of that attitude remain. So does the problem of economic justice. Of course there has been progress. In 1959, 4 percent of Americans approved of interracial marriage. That number is now 87 percent (the breakdown is 96 percent of blacks; 84 percent of whites). Over the centuries, whites grudgingly allowed blacks to move into “their” neighborhoods, but then either fled or found subtle but effective ways to marginalize where they could live in those communities. Whites stopped letting corporations like U.S. Steel have young black men be arrested on the trumped-up charge of vagrancy so they could be put in the company’s custody to finish out their sentences as free laborers. More than a century after Emancipation, whites allowed blacks to eat at the same lunch counters, drink from the same water fountains, swim in the same municipal pools, go to the same schools and use the same toilets. It took an act of Congress 50 years ago to guarantee the right to vote — a right that the current Supreme Court has watered down. Progress occurred grudgingly, and then because of courts, federal intervention and activists who would not go away, either via intimidation or coercion. Some of them were murdered for their beliefs. In 2008, progress was manifested in the election of a black president. What didn’t happen was economic equality. Not even close. The 2011 census tells us that the net worth of the average black household in the United States was $6,314, compared with $110,500 for the average white household. The wealth gap by race in the United States is roughly 40 percent greater today that it was in 1967. It is greater than the gap that existed in South Africa during apartheid, when whites owned about 15 times as much as blacks. Today, whites in America own almost 18 times what blacks own. What didn’t happen was equality in the criminal justice system. Crime is a function of poverty. ProPublica, the online investigative journalism enterprise, issued a report last month showing that young black men are 21 times more likely to be shot and killed by police than young white men. From 2010 to 2012, black teens ages 15 to 19 were killed at a rate of 31.17 per million, while whites of those ages were killed at a rate of 1.47 per million. Blacks account for 13 percent of the U.S. population; for 60 percent of those in prison. A black man has a 28 percent chance of going to prison during his lifetime; a white man has a 4 percent chance. America’s prisons are full of men and women who have received disparate sentences for similar crimes because of the color of their skin. All of this makes the race conversation difficult. So does this: Human beings are tribal by nature. We identify with those who look like us. Nearly 20 years ago, many blacks cheered the jury acquittal of O.J. Simpson in the murder of his wife and her friend, while whites were aghast. The response to the Simpson verdict was complex. While many African-Americans did not think Mr. Simpson was innocent, they viewed the jury’s verdict as a rebuke to the nation’s history of racial crimes. Payback of a kind. Further evidence that our views are still tribal: In 1995, 68 percent of whites thought Simpson was guilty of the double murder; 60 percent of blacks thought he was innocent. A recent CNN poll showed that 77 percent of whites did not think Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson should be charged with murder in the death of Michael Brown; 54 percent of nonwhites (blacks, Latinos and Asians) thought he should. White guilt and good intentions are not enough to erase the history. Black anger and protest aren’t either. For that matter, neither is a conversation about race. But it’s a start. We must begin to know our neighbors. If you talk to someone, share your goals and thoughts and hopes, it’s harder for him to hate you. It’s more difficult to be prejudiced against someone you know. The experts in communication tell us that if we start the conversation by talking about what we have in common, we are more likely to have a productive discussion. One example of building a beach of understanding one grain of sand at a time is going on in Chattanooga, Tenn., courtesy of former Kirkwood High School principal Franklin McCallie. Mr. McCallie and his wife, Tresa McCallie, started out a couple of years ago inviting black and white people into their home for coffee, cake and conversation. It began with 50 or so guests at a time, the mix always intentionally a third black and two-thirds white because, as Mr. McCallie puts it, the whites have more to learn. The goal is to come as strangers, leave as friends. It sounds trite. Simplistic. Maybe it is. But it’s also been successful in demystifying the “other,” in creating relationships and understanding between blacks and whites. Young people are better at these conversations than older ones. They have it on social media, which they used last week to summon each other by the thousands in cities across the country to stand up for equal justice the wake of the St. Louis County grand jury’s decision not to indict Mr. Wilson. On these pages Monday, Editorial Page Editor Tony Messenger invited readers to create empathy by joining in his Christian faith tradition of witnessing. That’s another way of saying, let’s have this conversation. Let’s tell our stories so that we can begin to understand why we think the way we do. Please join us. Let’s use this forum as our virtual living room. We’ll provide the space. You’re on your own for the coffee and cake."
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#853
12-01-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Pete
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"America is still a land of promise, especially during a political campaign."
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#854
12-01-2014, 10:48 AM
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And in other news, here is a tidbit from one of the three pathology camps that examined Brown's body. The report is the county pathology report.
One of the narratives is that Wilson maintained a strict firing sequence, only shooting at Brown from the confines of his Tahoe, and then only after the chase stopped, some 150 odd feet from the Tahoe, when Brown turned to confront, and then charge Wilson. However, for those who choose to read the autopsy report, wounds #8 and #9, from the bullet that struck and passed through Brown's right forearm, and fractured his ulna, could have occurred from either being shot in the back as he was fleeing(as some testified), or from the front(as others testified.) Due to the articulated and rotational range of both the elbow and the shoulder, Brown could have been shot from the back as he fled. This is the one bullet of the six/seven that struck him that cannot conclusively be determined whether it was a front or rear strike. http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...sy-report.html
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#855
12-01-2014, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
What--do you think police prevent murders, or other crime?
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#856
12-01-2014, 11:11 AM
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Did Michael Brown charge, stagger forward, stumble, forward, walk like a zombie, or die on the spot?
Did Michael Brown charge? Eyewitnesses paint a muddled picture Officer Darren Wilson stated in his grand jury testimony that Michael Brown ran at him while reaching into his waistband, a statement many have seen as a justification for Wilson’s use of lethal force against the teenager, who was not armed. Yet, among the people who witnessed the fatal shooting, descriptions of Brown’s movements ranged from a full charge toward the officer to a move to surrender. Read excerpts of their testimony below. Read related story. Descriptions of Brown’s movements Charging “like he was going to run right through me” “When he charged once more” “started charging towards the officer” “I thought he was trying to charge him” Walking back “it wasn't fast enough to be a charge” “casually walking ” “he picked up a little bit of speed” “taking two small steps ” Turned around “turn around facing the officer” “he was turned around” “I saw him turn to his right” “turned around” “I see Big Mike turn around and face the officer” “He turned around” Falling “Michael Brown was on his knees” “he was just catching his balance” Surrender “kept saying, I got, my hands is up” “he was walking in a demeanor as I give up” “okay, okay, okay, hands up” “he put his arms about shoulder length and just stopped” “Mike Brown with his arms up” “he was giving up” “he was not close at all to him” Read the complete statements: “Just coming straight at me like he was going to run right through me.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 5, page 229 Officer Darren Wilson “Mike Brown continuously came forward in the charging motion and at some point, at one point he started to slow down and he came to a stop. And when he stopped, that's when the officer ceased fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to charge once more at him. When he charged once more, the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an estimate of three to four shots. And that's when Mike Brown finally collapsed right about even with this driveway.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 6 , page 167 Witness walking to his vehicle parked nearby. “Then Michael turned around and started charging towards the officer and the officer still yelling stop. He did have his firearm drawn, but he was yelling stop, stop, stop. He didn't so he started shooting him.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 18, page 27 Witness sitting in van with her family. “I thought he was trying to charge him at first because the only thing I kept saying was is he crazy? Why don't he just stop instead of running because if somebody is pulling a gun on you, first thing I would think is to drop down on the ground and not try to look like I'm going to attack 'em, but that was my opinion. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 11, page 181 Witness was driving through the complex in a van with her family. “I didn't get the impression of a charge because it wasn't fast enough to be a charge.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 44 Witness traveling through the complex in van with his family. “He was casually walking as if he had got shot and he started feeling the pain or something like that, where like he couldn't you know, pick up his pace because of the shot. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 11, page 151 Witness was on patio of her apartment. “Um, I guess it was like he stopped and he turned around like this, and then he started moving towards the officer and kind of looked like he picked up a little bit of speed, and then he started going down.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 23, page 137 Witness was sitting in van with her family. “Yeah, I remember him like taking two small steps like he was stumbling and like I said, the officer lets out some more shots and that's when he hit the ground.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 21 Witness in second-floor apartment, looking out window and then on balcony “And that's when I proceeded to look out my rear view mirror, he was running, shorts was fired, I saw Mike Brown turn around facing the officer at this time. Hands was up probably about like this, they weren't all the way up, but they was probably just like this. And that's when I looked at the review mirror, heard about two or three more gunshots, Michael Brown fell to the ground. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 120 Witness was stopped in her Monte Carlo along Canfield. “And then whenever the officer is walking up on him shooting, he was turned around with his hands up and he just went all the way down as the shots hit him. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 102 Witness sitting in a car parked in the complex. “I saw him turn to his right, turned around, but as he was turning, I'm sorry, he was like this. What I was saying was that I didn't see like a big all the way up there kind of thing, I just saw a turned around kind of right here.” Q: “Kind of shoulder high, hands up?” A: “Yes.” Q: “But his palms were like facing the officer?” A: “Yes.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 9, page 22 Witness looking out window of her apartment. “Whenever he stopped and turned around at, that's where he fell dead at. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 6, page 252 Witness standing in the grass about 20 feet away from the shooting. “...I was still in shock and now I'm just watching the officer, you know, pace towards Big Mike. I See him fire the second shot, I see Big Mike turn around and face the officer. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 4, page 121 Dorian Johnson, crouching along stopped vehicles on Canfield. “I mean, he turned around, and I'm assuming that he was just stunned, that's how it appeared to me. That he looked down at his hands and he saw blood. He turned around and he just started walking back towards the officer. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 10, page 41 Witness on exterior stairs of apartment complex. “And so by the time I made it to where I could see what was going on, Michael Brown was on his knees.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 16, page 12 Witness standing in a parking lot along Canfield Drive. “Q: So when the officer, when Michael Brown turned around and was staggering as you said, moving toward the officer, did it appear to you that he was charging the officer?” A: “No, it appears to me that he was just catching his balance. That's when I thought, where I assumed again that he had been hit with the second shot, which I don't know.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 240 Witness was doing maintenance work at the complex. “And the police just kept firing and saying something to the boy, and kept firing. The boy kept saying, I got, my hands is up, I don't have anything, what do you want. And next thing I know, I don't know where it hit, but when the boy fell, there was blood shot everywhere. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 17, page 212 Witness was stopped in her vehicle on Canfield. “I guess he was walking in a demeanor as I give up. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 9, page 98 Witness standing on porch outside of second floor apartment “Mike Brown started walking back at him okay, okay, okay, hands up and he just started shooting at him” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 13, page 219 Witness was doing maintenance work at the complex. “He just turned around like, you know, he put his arms about shoulder length and just stopped, like looking at him. And then, um, that's when I heard the rest of the shots. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 17, page 25 Witness walking along sidewalk on Canfield. “Q: So when you saw Mike Brown with his arms up coming towards the officer, he did not appear to be rushing the officer to you?” A: “Not at all, not at all.” Q: “Did he appear to be charging the officer?” A: “Not at all, not at all.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 16, page 60 Witness was on apartment porch. “When he left from here and he was walking toward him, I believe he was giving up. ...Because his hands was up, he was walking toward him. Where was he going to go. The officer was standing there with a gun dead aimed on him. ” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 8, page 148 Witness standing on porch of her apartment. “Q: When he turned around and raised his hands up shoulder length, did he charge at the officer?” A: “No, no.” Q: “Did he move in a threatening way towards the officer?” A: “Not that I could see, no.” Q: “As if he was coming to do him harm?” A: “No, the officer wasn't that close, he was not close at all to him.” Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 167 Witness sitting in Monte Carlo stopped along Canfield. SOURCE: Eyewitness testimony and statements provided to the grand jury. Published Nov 28, 2014. By Sandhya Somashekhar, Kimbriell Kelly, Amy Brittain and Kimberly Kindy. Graphic by Denise Lu and Ian Robinson.
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#857
12-01-2014, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
__________________
As long as the roots are not severed, all will be well in the garden.
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#858
12-01-2014, 11:58 AM
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But Finn, if you give all the witnesses credibility, then the majority/perponderance of them said Brown surrendered.
If you accept one, then consistency says you should accept the follow up testimony.
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#859
12-01-2014, 12:00 PM
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Also, there is no ambiguity regarding the one bullet Wilson fired into the apartment building almost thirty yards to the right of Brown while Brown was fleeing.
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#860
12-01-2014, 12:01 PM
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You seem immune to the facts in the facts don't support your preconceived notions. Thank God your weren't on that grand jury with your immunity from reason.
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As long as the roots are not severed, all will be well in the garden. Last edited by finnbow; 12-01-2014 at 12:20 PM.
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