Israel has invaded Gaza...

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Neither I, nor Israelis should say anything of the sort. A reasonable plan for a Palestinian homeland and a Jewish homeland was provided by the British Mandate and it was rejected right out of the gate and not by the Jews....
The problems all end when Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda terrorism ends. When hundreds of rockets and mortar rounds aren't fired into quiet Israeli neighborhoods filled with people who just want to be left the fuck alone, but probably won't ever be because some religious fanatic and the dolts who are more than happy to follow him don't like who lives in the neighborhood.

Trying to make peace with those people is like trying to make peace with a fucking wolverine.

To the 3 bolded points:

The difference was that Palestinians (or whatever tribe you're comfortable calling them) had been living on the land for 2 millennia at that point and the Jews hadn't lived there in 2 millennia. Losing your ancestral home to a group because of persecution they suffered on other shores doesn't dampen the blow of the loss.

If Israel were indeed willing to live in peace within the 1967 borders, there would be a chance for a reasonable accommodation. We'll never know because that's off the table for Israel. However, Israel intentions with regard to Judea and Samaria are quite clear.

As for making peace with Palestinians, Israel has absolutely no interest in doing so if it were to interfere with their plans to take over Judea and Samaria (with the exception of walled-in urban ghettos in places like Hebron and Ramallah).

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

It's more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQobIUE1zTU

Obviously you're a little foggy about the basic strategy of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest of them.

BTW - you really don't think Hamas is a terrorist organization? Hamas comes out of the same scummy bucket as the people who took down the WTC.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Obviously you're a little foggy about the basic strategy of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest of them.

BTW - you really don't think Hamas is a terrorist organization? Hamas comes out of the same scummy bucket as the people who took down the WTC.

They both Arab and terrorists. That's pretty much where the similarity ends. Hamas scope of operations is directed toward securing a Palestinian homeland (albeit with horrific, despicable tactics), whereas Al Qaeda's objective is a world-wide caliphate. In other words, one group has only Israel in its crosshairs and the other has much of the world in its sights. They have more in common with the IRA or the Tamil Tigers than they do with Al Qaeda.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

To the 3 bolded points:

The difference was that Palestinians (or whatever tribe you're comfortable calling them) had been living on the land for 2 millennia at that point and the Jews hadn't lived there in 2 millennia. Losing your ancestral home to a group because of persecution they suffered on other shores doesn't dampen the blow of the loss.

This is a subject of continuous debate amongst historians since the establishment of the State of Israel. Yours is one learned opinion. Mine is another. The world community which abandoned the Jews of Europe to the Nazis for over a decade decided that they wanted to be done with Jews and decided that a homeland was due to European Jews. And that homeland should be where it now stands. If some other group didn't like it, maybe they should have been firing rockets into the UN instead of Israeli neighborhoods for the past 60 years.

Originally Posted by finnbow

If Israel were indeed willing to live in peace within the 1967 borders, there would be a chance for a reasonable accommodation. We'll never know because that's off the table for Israel. However, Israel intentions with regard to Judea and Samaria are quite clear.

Why should they? The West Bank and Gaza were not taken from Palestinians. They were taken from Jordan and Egypt respectively. Neither Jordan nor Egypt was ever going to give that land to anybody...no Jews...no Palestinians. And, of course, where was the outrage over how Palestinians were being screwed by Hussein and Nasser between 1948 and 1967? There was none. Hussein and Nasser weren't Jews. Israel took those pieces of dirt because enemies sworn to it's destruction attacked them from those pieces of dirt. The government of the State of Israel in 1967 promised the citizens of Israel that they would never again be attacked by Jordan or Egypt from the West Bank or Gaza. The government of Israel is keeping it's promise to it's citizens.

Originally Posted by finnbow

As for making peace with Palestinians, Israel has absolutely no interest in doing so if it were to interfere with their plans to take over Judea and Samaria exception of walled-in urban ghettos in places like Hebron and Ramallah).

Bullshit. Actually Bibi was ready to try to work out some sort of two-state solution...until Hamas, who, by their own charter will settle for nothing less than the State of Israel destroyed and all the Jews therein dead, and who are fully supported by the Palestinian people of Gaza, decided to kick off another round of terrorist rocket and mortar attacks directed purposefully on Israeli civilian targets. Their purpose...to sabotage any two-state solution. You just don't get it. For all their lip-service, Hamas and Hezbollah do not want a two-state solution. They want no Israel and dead Jews. And if they could figure out a way to have more dead Americans they would do that as well.

"In my vision of peace, in this small land of ours, two peoples live freely, side-by-side, in amity and mutual respect. Each will have its own flag, its own national anthem, its own government. Neither will threaten the security or survival of the other. These two realities - our connection to the land of Israel, and the Palestinian population living within it - have created deep divisions in Israeli society. But the truth is that we have much more that unites us than divides us... If we receive this guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs, and if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the State of the Jewish people, then we will be ready in a future peace agreement to reach a solution where a demilitarized Palestinian state exists alongside the Jewish state."

June, 14, 2009 - Benjamin Netanyahu

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...c97_story.html

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

This is a subject of continuous debate amongst historians since the establishment of the State of Israel. Yours is one learned opinion. Mine is another.

Why should they? The West Bank and Gaza were not taken from Palestinians. They were taken from Jordan and Egypt respectively. Neither Jordan nor Egypt was ever going to give that land to anybody...no Jews...no Palestinians. And, of course, where was the outrage of how any Palestinians were being screwed between 1948 and 1967? There was none. Israel took those pieces of dirt because enemies sworn to it's destruction attacked them from those pieces of dirt. The government of the State of Israel in 1967 promised the citizens of Israel that they would never again be attacked by Jordan or Egypt from the West Bank or Gaza. The government of Israel is keeping it's promise to it's citizens.

Bullshit. Actually Bibi was ready to try to work out some sort of two-state solution...until Hamas, who, by their own charter will settle for nothing less than the State of Israel destroyed and all the Jews therein dead, and who are fully supported by the Palestinian people of Gaza, decided to kick off another round of terrorist rocket and mortar attacks directed purposefully on Israeli civilian targets. Their purpose...to sabotage any two-state solution.

There's no argument among historians that the Jewish diaspora started in 70 AD.

How do you square your last 2 paragraphs? The first asserts that Israel should not be willing to cede control of the West Bank to the Palestinians and the next asserts that Bibi is willing. There are ample numbers in Bibi's coalition that are fundamentally opposed to anything other than fulling annexing Judea and Samaria into a greater Israel. The whole issue of settlements (both quasi-legal and illegal (even under Israeli law) is paramount.

I'd love to hear your argument if you had the misfortune of being born in one of the dozens of Palestinian refugee camps because your parents' farm was seized by Israel.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

They both Arab and terrorists. That's pretty much where the similarity ends. Hamas scope of operations is directed toward securing a Palestinian homeland (albeit with horrific, despicable tactics), whereas Al Qaeda's objective is a world-wide caliphate. In other words, one group has only Israel in its crosshairs and the other has much of the world in its sights. They have more in common with the IRA or the Tamil Tigers than they do with Al Qaeda.

Wrong. Hamas has clearly stated what it's goals are. The destruction of the State of Israel and death to the Jews therein. Hamas has persistently sabotaged any possibility of a two-state solution every time it looked like there might be room for an accord. Hamas does not want a Palestinian homeland that does not include the elimination of the State of Israel. And you know it.

And for what it's worth...Hamas would be gloriously happy to see all of us dead as well. They just don't have the organization to direct any of there venom here. But when they achieve their stated goal in the middle east...I have no doubt they will be ready to direct their terrorism here, as their Al Qaeda brothers already have.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

You can see my edit above if you actually give a shit. When it comes to your silence on a member referring to Jews a nazis, unless and until you can show me where you took issue with it, in which case I owe you an apology, you are getting exactly the respect you deserve from me.

And please...let's not have any "oh...I missed that" BS. I referred to it at least three more times and found utter silence from you or anybody else. Everybody saw it...nobody gives a flying fuck.

Since when is it my duty, on pain of being dissed by you, to correct any rhetorical excesses you especially don't like, by any other posters?

I protested 'fucking wolverine' because it was in a post 'to me,' an argument supposedly aimed at clarifying matters for me. So I reacted, not by denouncing the saying as you suggested (you seem to often describe what people say inaccurately) but by proposing a question you might ask yourself. And I do indeed wish you'd take a moment and consider the question seriously. Again: what would you think of someone who chose to use such a dehumanizing vulgar metaphor to refer to Jews? You need not answer online, but answer honestly to yourself.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

There's no argument among historians that the Jewish diaspora started in 70 AD.

How do you square your last 2 paragraphs? The first asserts that Israel should not be willing to cede control of the West Bank to the Palestinians and the next asserts that Bibi is willing. There are ample numbers in Bibi's coalition that are fundamentally opposed to anything other than fulling annexing Judea and Samaria into a greater Israel. The whole issue of settlements (both quasi-legal and illegal (even under Israeli law) is paramount.

I'd love to hear your argument if you had the misfortune of being born in one of the dozens of Palestinian refugee camps because your parents' farm was seized by Israel.

So there are ample numbers in Bibi's coalition who would not go a long with a two-state solution. Good, fine...let's say Bibi is blowing smoke up our ass and has never had any intention of supporting a two-state solution. Let's say that the majority of Israelis have the same motives and opinions. I'll go so far, for the sake of argument, that I agree with you.

But then you're gonna have to say that Hamas, Hezbolla, the PLO and the rest of them have no interest in a two-state solution either. They're blowing smoke up everybody's ass as well. They're just not doing quite as good a job of obscuring their actual goals as the Israelis however, when their stated goals are the utter and complete destruction of the State of Israel and every Jew therein driven into the sea.

As far as your last paragraph is concerned...I've had a gutfull of your "you don't know what you're talking about, you've never been there", bullshit.

You've been clear as the waters off Haifa what you think of backwater cabbageville US House districts that elect dirtbags like Louie Gohmert and Michelle Bachmann. Ever been to those or any other ultra-right-wing teabag House districts? Ever been to Gohmert's district? Then maybe you have no right to any fucking opinion whatsoever about what goes on there or why they elect the boneheads they do, run their schools the way they do, deny gays their rights the way they do, stick their noses into women's reproductive organs the way they do, or any other crap they do. After you've spent 4 weeks in Gilmer, Texas, come back an educate me all about it.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Since when is it my duty, on pain of being dissed by you, to correct any rhetorical excesses you especially don't like, by any other posters?

I protested 'fucking wolverine' because it was in a post 'to me,' an argument supposedly aimed at clarifying matters for me. So I reacted, not by denouncing the saying as you suggested (you seem to often describe what people say inaccurately) but by proposing a question you might ask yourself. And I do indeed wish you'd take a moment and consider the question seriously. Again: what would you think of someone who chose to use such a dehumanizing vulgar metaphor to refer to Jews? You need not answer online, but answer honestly to yourself.

I'll answer honestly right here. As far as I'm concerned your'e a hypocrite. Feel free to unfriend me if you're so inclined.

You asked me how I'd feel. Asked and answered. You don't get two. And I also answered as to how you left your balls in your other pants regarding that comment. Suggesting that trying to make peace with terrorist scum is the equivalent of trying to make peace with wolverines is an insult to decent wolverines everywhere. If you don't give a shit that Israeli Jews (mostly the descendants of those who barely escaped nazi murderers for christ's sake) are being referred to as nazis on this forum then you don't. And your two-faced petty defense of it is right here. You've made it clear above that anybody who wants to refer to a Jew as a nazi is just fine with you. But don't anybody dare insult a fanatical Palestinian rocket launching terrorist murderer, or sabbath day market bomber, or they're in for a load of shit from you. You're a real first-rate, second-rate guy in my book.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

BTW - you really don't think Hamas is a terrorist organization? Hamas comes out of the same scummy bucket as the people who took down the WTC.

Kill em all!

Let God sort em out!