I think they're lying. And I think they know it.

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

No, I don't beleive they were ALL fervent, devout, bible thumping Christians any more than I believe any one given group of people today are totally like-minded. The mere premise of this is an absolute absurdity.

Yes, Pete, "organized religion of ANY stripe". ANY stripe, including CHRISTIANITY. Sure, one can believe in the teachings of Christ and never step foot in a church. I understand that.

But, are you really trying to get me to believe that the Church, any church, hasn't, isn't or wouldn't try to get it's claws into the government for the purpose of garnering undue influence over public policy? Please. They whine about it constantly. "Get God back into government.", "Christian Nation", "Put Prayer back into Public Schools", blah, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum.

Dave

I never said they were Bible thumpers, many of them were taciturn in the extreme, part of the reason it's so easy to draw out this debate today.

It does include Christianity. Heck the thought (then) of it being any other would have been laughable to them, except for their taciturnity

Freedom OF religion was to keep the various denominations in check.

I'm not and have not encouraged religious takeover of government. Free expression however (at least as they saw it) has been trampled.

Originally Posted by Boreas

Some, yes. Some, no. The Treaty of Tripoli specifically addresses the question of whether we are or are not a Christian nation. It states in so many words that we are not.

Right! Those Luddites like Tommy Jefferson and Benjie Franklin woulda been on those "Evolutionists" like white on rice!

I think the quotes Fast Eddie posted could be considered "source material". If by source material, you mean the Constitution, there isn't even a mention of God in it. The Declaration of Independence does mention God but not in a way that could be construed as an acknowledgment of his authority. Also, the Declaration of Independence wasn't written by the US Government. It was a manifesto written by rebels.



We still have them. They're cultural but not governmental.



So? None were women, by the way. Does that make us a male nation?



This one's a little tougher for me. That Chaplin bit has always bothered me. I think it walks right up to the edge of being an unconstitutional commingling of religion and government. Printing the bible doesn't really mean much, though.

John

The treaty of Tripoli, that groundbreaking document? It shows we have always had a realpolitik view of foriegn relations.

2 of many, many, many. And Ben advocated Bible teaching in school.

Picked and choosy source material! And again examine what they are actually saying.

Back then it certainly governmental, a call from the federal government. Washington called for the 1st Thanksgiving in our new country, to Thank God for listening!

Yes, our form of government was designed exclusively by males.

Printing the Bible doesn't mean much?! What are we talking about here?

And you guys bringing up Thomas Paine should learn what happened to him.

Pete

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

Mistrust of religion was based on British Rule.

Not entirely. They had a memory of things like the Thirty Years War to show them how toxic religion could be, especially when mixed with government. They also had their own history during the colonial period to look to with witch burnings and religious persecution from almost the beginning.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

If you don't like Thomas Paine, how 'bout Franklin:

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

How about John Adams:

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams

Seems clearly to be speaking of Christianity.

Jefferson:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Shoot, lets go a little further along- how about Lincoln?

“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Words of wise wisdom Rob

Pete

I got to 79, well in seven more days, by realizing I had two ears and two eyes but only one mouth, the 2:1 ratio is no accident.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

The treaty of Tripoli, that groundbreaking document? It shows we have always had a realpolitik view of foriegn relations.

So, you got nothing, right?

2 of many, many, many. And Ben advocated Bible teaching in school.

The comment was in regard to your contention that our founders would be assailing science.

Picked and choosy source material! And again examine what they are actually saying.

Okay, pick and choose your own comments where the founders advocated for a declaration that we are a Christian nation. More to the point, pick and choose the Government document which so states.

Back then it certainly governmental, a call from the federal government. Washington called for the 1st Thanksgiving in our new country, to Thank God for listening!

This really only has cultural significance, not governmental. In "a Christian nation" it would have been mandated, not suggested.

Yes, our form of government was designed exclusively by males.

And God! Don't forget God!

Printing the Bible doesn't mean much?! What are we talking about here?

Okay, tell me why it means anything.

And you guys bringing up Thomas Paine should learn what happened to him.

You haven't heard me mention him. I know what happened.

John

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

If you don't like Thomas Paine, how 'bout Franklin:

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

How about John Adams:

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams

Seems clearly to be speaking of Christianity.

Jefferson:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Shoot, lets go a little further along- how about Lincoln?

“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”

Ah but even Ben saw the wisdom of the Bible even if he didn't believe it.

And the thought that Adams WASN'T a Christian is remarkable.

I was involved in a discussion of Jefferson many years ago, the consensus was that he did fall away (and while fallen invented 'modern' negative campaigning!) but came back when older. I don't know if that is true (the campaigning is). But, 1 of many many.

Lincoln was born in 1809

Originally Posted by merrylander

I got to 79, well in seven more days, by realizing I had two ears and two eyes but only one mouth, the 2:1 ratio is no accident.

I would do well to learn that a bit myself Sir.

Pete

[merrylander]

I have posted this before but here goes again. Visit Colonial Williamsburg and you will see the church (at that time Church of England) abd the stocks. You attended service at the CofE or else. If you were not flat on your back in bed running a 102 degree temperature then you spent time in the stocks, day and night, summer or winter. This the founders thought was too much and they wanted no part of a state religion.

Heck, even in England people were getting a bit tired of the Cof E, my own father chose John Wesley and the Methodists over the CofE.

BTW if you wonder why I speak out against Murdoch's schemes Google 'free press jefferson' if you want some interesting quotations.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Ah but even Ben saw the wisdom of the Bible even if he didn't believe it.

So, he was an advocate ofr a Christian nation even though he thought it was bunk, even though useful bunk?

I was involved in a discussion of Jefferson many years ago, the consensus was that he did fall away (and while fallen invented 'modern' negative campaigning!) but came back when older.

"Fall away"? "Fallen"? If you want to see just how far Jefferson "strayed" read his "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth".

I don't know if that is true (the campaigning is). But, 1 of many many.

If Jefferson invented negative campaigning it was by being the victim of it. Adams, that devout Christian, threw the kitchen sink at Jefferson, right down to the (accurate) rumors about Sally Hemmings.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

I can tell you what I think, not that any of you asked. I am a Catholic and if pressed I would call myself a Christian, though I distain what that word has come to represent in our country. I think, like Franklin, the Bible is filled with unfathomable wisdom, though it is more often over looked in favor of quotes that can be used to stand in judgment of others.

I go to church every week. Okay, most weeks. I participate in communion and have received all appropriate sacraments. I also believe the Bible was written by men and the commonly held belief in the nature of "God" is absurd. For many years I considered leaving the church. Damn near became a Unitarian, like many of our Founding Fathers. Ultimately I found that many in the clergy believed things very much in line with what I believed. I figure if they can call themselves Catholic so can I.

Paine's writings helped me come to terms with my beliefs. I think where I am now is probably very close to where many of our Founding Fathers were. People want it to be black and white. They were Christian or they were not. I don't think it's that simple. But I do think it's quite clear that they went out of their way to avoid the implication that any religion should be included in political debate.

I also believe, as was the intent of this thread, that the people organizing the "Tea Parties" know they are misleading the citizens of this country. I find that very wrong.

[doucanoe]

I believe that the "Teabaggers" as you so kindly refer to them, also would like to see an overall reduction in government spending along with reducing the tax burden being placed on business among other things. The two go hand in hand, or should. That's a sacrifice I'm willing to endure.



RC