Israel has invaded Gaza...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Would that you understood the meaning of the word entitlement.

There are plenty of us who believe the Jews are as entitled to the West Bank, and the rest of the land upon which stands the State of Israel as anybody.

1. Sure. They're called Zionists.
2. That's the meaning of entitlement.

You, of course, don't perceive the irony. Actually, it is reasonably evidenced that you don't perceive much of anything.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Would that you understood the meaning of the word entitlement.

There are plenty of us who believe the Jews are as entitled to the West Bank, and the rest of the land upon which stands the State of Israel as anybody.

Every square inch of dirt under their feet was taken, not earned, there is no "birthright" to it. First by the English, then by the Israelis. They suffer the abuse they get because they chose to force their way into a place where they have always been, still are and always will be-----totally unwelcome. Out of the pan and into the fire, as it were. I understand why you refuse to accept that, but don't understand why you don't see it.

IMO, we should cease to support Israel. If they stand on their own, fine. That is between them and the Arabs. But, we need to stop wasting our time and money expecting the situation over there to change. It is insanity to keep on the way we have. They will always have to keep walls between themselves and the world around them. They will always have to fight and hide beneath their "iron dome". They will always have to stay armed to the teeth. And they CHOSE this, you said it yourself. They made the choice, they deal with the consequences. I don't see why I should be paying for it.

Dave

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Interestingly, a significant number of Israel's population don't like Bibi's policies and are quite vocal about it. They aren't subject to charges of antisemitism there while people here holding those same views are.

Well, I guess we can put the lie to this statement.

At this point, the Israeli public are not in favor of a ceasefire. An unprecedented 87% of the public is opposed to a ceasefire, with 67% of the public believing that the only goal of the project is to end the rule of Hamas in Gaza. I can not think of any time in Israel’s history, since the ’73 Yom Kippur War, that the Israeli public was as united. This is despite what, for Israel, has been the heavy loss of life over 40 soldiers have died. 19 days of running in to the shelters has convinced the Israeli public that the only solution is to end the rule of Hamas in Gaza.

http://www.newsweek.com/tel-aviv-dia...1530?piano_t=1

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Every square inch of dirt under their feet was taken, not earned, there is no "birthright" to it. First by the English, then by the Israelis. They suffer the abuse they get because they chose to force their way into a place where they have always been, still are and always will be-----totally unwelcome. Out of the pan and into the fire, as it were. I understand why you refuse to accept that, but don't understand why you don't see it.

IMO, we should cease to support Israel. If they stand on their own, fine. That is between them and the Arabs. But, we need to stop wasting our time and money expecting the situation over there to change. It is insanity to keep on the way we have. They will always have to keep walls between themselves and the world around them. They will always have to fight and hide beneath their "iron dome". They will always have to stay armed to the teeth. And they CHOSE this, you said it yourself. They made the choice, they deal with the consequences. I don't see why I should be paying for it.

Dave

If you mean military support, I agree. It's not the 1970's anymore. It seems to me that history has shown the political leaders of Israel's neighboring sovereign nations that they would not be allowed to over-run another sovereign nation. Besides...the history of military support to Israel was not about one-sided support for Israel. It was about the deal struck between Israel and Egypt for financial military support from this country for both in exchange for their promise not to take direct military action on each other.

Israel is perfectly capable of managing Palestinian terrorism and doesn't need any help from us to accomplish that. Proven by history as well.

Meantime it's their dirt now. By the action of the UN in 1947 and by Israel's defense of their dirt.

As far as Israeli Jews having to protect themselves from the rest of the world...Israeli Jews, any Jews, would be utter fools to ever fully trust the rest of the world. History has proven that...over and over and over again. They already know that Dave. It's why they behave the way they do.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

After listening to your bullshit for the past few days, I don't give a flying fuck what works for you or what you don't fucking support or how much time you spend on the West Bank.

In other words, "Don't confuse me with the facts."

Having not seen the misery that 4 million Palestinians live in, I guess I can't expect you to care about their plight. I was a pro-Israel as any American, including you and Whell, until I actually saw what was going on there (mostly with our weapons and money). I just don't happen to agree with you that announcing new settlements on the eve of the recent peace efforts and killing over a thousand people in Gaza (regardless of whose fault you think it is) actually gets Israel closer to living in peace with the Palestinians. And for the last time, playing the Holocaust card has no currency in today's mess.

Before this current mess, Hamas was on the ropes politically and economically. By his actions, Bibi threw them a lifeline.

[whell]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Every square inch of dirt under their feet was taken, not earned, there is no "birthright" to it. First by the English, then by the Israelis.

Well, that conveniently leaves out an entire swath of history. Maybe this will help a bit:

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...ourceID=000635

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

As far as Israeli Jews having to protect themselves from the rest of the world...Israeli Jews, any Jews, would be utter fools to ever fully trust the rest of the world. History has proven that...over and over and over again. They already know that Dave. It's why they behave the way they do.

I think I'm starting to get a handle on your worldview Ike.

There are two kinds of people in this world.

Jews, and Non-Jews.

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

I think I'm starting to get a handle on your worldview Ike.

There are two kinds of people in this world.

Jews, and Non-Jews.

Or if you are not with us, you are against us.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Every square inch of dirt under their feet was taken, not earned, there is no "birthright" to it. First by the English, then by the Israelis. They suffer the abuse they get because they chose to force their way into a place where they have always been, still are and always will be-----totally unwelcome. Out of the pan and into the fire, as it were. I understand why you refuse to accept that, but don't understand why you don't see it.

IMO, we should cease to support Israel. If they stand on their own, fine. That is between them and the Arabs. But, we need to stop wasting our time and money expecting the situation over there to change. It is insanity to keep on the way we have. They will always have to keep walls between themselves and the world around them. They will always have to fight and hide beneath their "iron dome". They will always have to stay armed to the teeth. And they CHOSE this, you said it yourself. They made the choice, they deal with the consequences. I don't see why I should be paying for it.

Dave

As far as my posts to this thread...I have continually attempted to make posts with substantive history and other information related to the issue. What I see from you and the other libs on this website is opinion backed by pretty much nothing but more opinion. And all of it conveniently oriented to recent enough history to make your case. So you can opine that the Jews have no claim on anything however if you paid any attention to the actual history Dave...which goes back far beyond WWI and the British Mandate, you would be forced to admit that there are several peoples who had, and continue to have, legitimate claims to some of the dirt that is now Israel. Maybe the history is too much trouble and opinion is easier.

Understand this though...the original proposal by the British for a Jewish homeland (where Euopean "Christians" wouldn't have to deal with Christ killing Jews anymore), and for land for Palestinians as well, provided dirt for everybody. The only fucking reason it didn't work is because the Arabs refused to accept a provision for any territory, anywhere for any fucking Jews...and the only reason for that refusal was (and remains) BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS.

And after I provide the historical basis for military aid for Israel and their neighboring Arab states...what I see outta you is that the only aid you object to is:

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

IMO, we should cease to support Israel.

Since there's absolutely no suggestion of ending support for Arab States at the same time you would end support for the State of Israel...I have no alternative but to assume you have a problem with Jews as well. WTF else am I supposed to read out of this, eh? If you want to straighten me out about that...I'm here to listen.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

OK TJ time for you to be reasonable about this for just a moment, eh? If you were a concentration camp survivor, you really believe you could tolerate spending the rest of your life in fucking Germany? If it were me, I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes anywhere in Europe.

Why not?

There must have been at least a half a million allied occupation troops there to protect their asses.

If any Germans had tried to pull any shit on them they would have gotten the hammer dropped on them big time.