I think they're lying. And I think they know it.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

As far as I know this is the only government document of any sort which addresses the issue of whether we are "a Christian nation". It couldn't be clearer. We're not, never have been and, God willing , never will be.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

The most cursory investigation of the words of our Founding Fathers and the written works that influnced their opinions leaves absolutely no doubt at all that their intent was to create a country free from any national religion and indeed shows many of them were personally very suspect of any religion. Shoot, some of them appear to be down right atheist. Jefferson in particular was outspoken about his beliefs and mistrust of religion.

[piece-itpete]

My brothers, examine those quotes carefully and you will find they aren't talking about Christianity or the Bible - as experts on government (as they largely were) they were talking about 'organized' religion of ANY stripe.

Now they would undoubtabley be striking at the religion of science & government.

READ SOURCE MATERIAL! It's obvious. Think about my current sig. And look at their actions. There were 3 national calls to a day of prayer and fasting during the Revolutionary war by the Continental Congress. 29 of the 56 signatories of the Declaration had ecumenical degrees (they were pastors). There has always - always - been a Christian Chaplin, paid by the Congress, at Congress. They authorized the 1st legal printing of the Bible here for pete's sake. How does this jive with the current mantra?

Sorry for going off topic so badly, I'll back away slowly

Pete

[doucanoe]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

The most cursory investigation of the words of our Founding Fathers and the written works that influnced their opinions leaves absolutely no doubt at all that their intent was to create a country free from any national religion and indeed shows many of them were personally very suspect of any religion. Shoot, some of them appear to be down right atheist. Jefferson in particular was outspoken about his beliefs and mistrust of religion.

Mistrust of religion was based on British Rule. In that context, I don't blame him. Government tyranny didn't set well with him either.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."-----Thomas Jefferson

RC

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

READ SOURCE MATERIAL!

I'd suggest you start with Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason".

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html

[BlueStreak]

No, I don't beleive they were ALL fervent, devout, bible thumping Christians any more than I believe any one given group of people today are totally like-minded. The mere premise of this is an absolute absurdity.

Yes, Pete, "organized religion of ANY stripe". ANY stripe, including CHRISTIANITY. Sure, one can believe in the teachings of Christ and never step foot in a church. I understand that.

But, are you really trying to get me to believe that the Church, any church, hasn't, isn't or wouldn't try to get it's claws into the government for the purpose of garnering undue influence over public policy? Please. They whine about it constantly. "Get God back into government.", "Christian Nation", "Put Prayer back into Public Schools", blah, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum.

Dave

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

My brothers, examine those quotes carefully and you will find they aren't talking about Christianity or the Bible - as experts on government (as they largely were) they were talking about 'organized' religion of ANY stripe.

Some, yes. Some, no. The Treaty of Tripoli specifically addresses the question of whether we are or are not a Christian nation. It states in so many words that we are not.

Now they would undoubtabley be striking at the religion of science & government.

Right! Those Luddites like Tommy Jefferson and Benjie Franklin woulda been on those "Evolutionists" like white on rice!

READ SOURCE MATERIAL! It's obvious. Think about my current sig.

I think the quotes Fast Eddie posted could be considered "source material". If by source material, you mean the Constitution, there isn't even a mention of God in it. The Declaration of Independence does mention God but not in a way that could be construed as an acknowledgment of his authority. Also, the Declaration of Independence wasn't written by the US Government. It was a manifesto written by rebels.

And look at their actions. There were 3 national calls to a day of prayer and fasting during the Revolutionary war by the Continental Congress.

We still have them. They're cultural but not governmental.

29 of the 56 signatories of the Declaration had ecumenical degrees (they were pastors).

So? None were women, by the way. Does that make us a male nation?

There has always - always - been a Christian Chaplin, paid by the Congress, at Congress. They authorized the 1st legal printing of the Bible here for pete's sake. How does this jive with the current mantra?

This one's a little tougher for me. That Chaplin bit has always bothered me. I think it walks right up to the edge of being an unconstitutional commingling of religion and government. Printing the bible doesn't really mean much, though.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

My brothers, examine those quotes carefully and you will find they aren't talking about Christianity or the Bible - as experts on government (as they largely were) they were talking about 'organized' religion of ANY stripe.

Now they would undoubtabley be striking at the religion of science & government.

(edited to be less hostile)I think you're mistaken. They specifically site the Bible and Christianity. I don't see any ambiguity at all. For instance:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

That is quite clear, and it is not unique. It specifically references "the Bible". I don't know how you could get anything else from it. Clearly has nothing at all to do with "the religion of science". Scinece is not a religion. Carl Sagen had a perfect quote that summs up the difference:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.
Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address"

[BlueStreak]

And, as a side note, "Mehomiten" was the word for Muslim during that period.

Dave

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

29 of the 56 signatories of the Declaration had ecumenical degrees (they were pastors).

It's important to hold facts in historical context. You have to examine the role of religion at the time. Shoot, not really any different today. Can you imagine someone running for President saying "you know, I don't go to church. Shoot, I don't really believe in God". No way he would get nominated, let alone elected.

I'll stand by this- take any number of quotes from our founding fathers and ask if they could be elected today. Are we holding thier ideals true?