Hamas Attack in Israel

[Oerets]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Is one opinion as bad as another then?

Really?


A misinformed biased self serving or out right misleading needs to be considered....

Trust yet verify after all.....

[Mark B]

Originally Posted by finnbow

It seems you're conflicted as to whether or not you like Bibi and his policies. His past policies vis-a-vis Hamas are not in dispute, however.

I see nothing in Bibi's policy toward the Palestinian Authority and Hamas that would lead a neutral observer to believe it would encourage Hamas to stage a massive terrorist attack on Israel.

What opinion pieces or intelligence was there prior to Oct 7th that concluded that this policy would lead to such an attack?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Mark B

I see nothing in Bibi's policy toward the Palestinian Authority and Hamas that would lead a neutral observer to believe it would encourage Hamas to stage a massive terrorist attack on Israel.

What opinion pieces or intelligence was there prior to Oct 7th that concluded that this policy would lead to such an attack?

That is most definitely not what I said (nor what any of the cited articles asserted). What I said was that Bibi cynically propped up Hamas because they were sworn enemies of Fatah (the controlling (and relatively more reasonable) authority on the West Bank). He wanted to keep them at each other's throats (as they've been since 2007) in an effort to ensure than Palestinians would not come together and entertain a two-state solution, something the far-right members of Bibi's governing conservative coalition simply cannot abide (they want to annex most, if not all, of the West Bank).

In short, Bibi recognized that his domestic conservative allies (and most other nations) don't give a shit about Gaza, particularly while run by a murderous, terrorist organization. Keeping Hamas and Fatah at each others throats while painting both with a broad brush as bloodthirsty terrorists helped him eschew a 2-state solution and continue to pursue his settlement policy. And since Gaza is relatively small and largely blockaded, Bibi thought he could contain it while giving himself a freer hand to pursue his plans on the West Bank. Now that this attack has occurred, it appears that his strategic gamble has blown up in his face (in the eyes of 80% of Israelis anyway).

BTW, the IDF and Israeli intelligence officials did indeed warn Bibi that his attempted (and hugely unpopular) judicial reform proposal and the attendant social unrest would embolden Israel's enemies. Moreover, immediately before the attack, US and Egyptian intelligence warned Bibi on possible trouble from Gaza, but he blew them off thinking he had Gaza effectively bottled up.

What I am saying is that the situation there is not as simple and straightforward as Ike and others characterize it (Israelis good, Palestinians bad). It's far more complex than that.

[bobabode]

Looks like the explosion at the hospital in Gaza was a rocket fired from within Gaza - as best as anyone can ascertain.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...b77c4285&ei=11

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

What I said was that Bibi cynically propped up Hamas because they were sworn enemies of Fatah (the controlling (and relatively more reasonable) authority on the West Bank). He wanted to keep them at each other's throats

This is an opinion as often not supported by other opinions as often as it is supported.

Keep making your victim precipitation/victim facilitation attribution error, finn. Because one way or another that is what you're doing with your obsession about Bibi. I've already acknowledged that Bibi is not a good guy, but Bibi did not create Hamas. Netanyahu did not come to power as the chairman of Likud until 1993, and he did not win the first election for Prime Minister in Israel's for the office of head of state until 1996.

HAMAS WAS FOUNDED AS THE TERRORIST FACTION THAT IT IS IN 1987, SIX YEARS BEFORE NETANYAHU ROSE TO CHAIRMAN OF THE LIKUD PARTY AND NINE YEARS BEFORE HE BECAME PRIME MINISTER. THE SUBHUMAN BEASTS OF HAMAS DID NOT NEED ANY HELP FROM NETANYAHU WHEN IT CAME TO PERPING THEIR HATE OF JEWS AND TERRORISM AGAINST JEWS.

Quit blaming the fucking victims.

This is Hamas purposful as it was when it was created in 1987...

Gazans Witness Crackdown on Alleged Collaborators with Israel

Ashraf Aweidah, was killed by armed groups in Gaza on Friday, Nov. 16, 2012. His body was tossed into one of the streets of Gaza City with a paper attached to him that labeled him an Israeli informant. From her family’s home in the Zeitoun neighborhood, Aweidah’s wife Khatam told Al-Monitor that her husband was killed unjustly and the problem arose because of the Jeep Magnum that he had bought a month before his arrest. Investigators explained to her sons that this car was suspicious and had been under surveillance for a long time.

Ashraf Aweidah, murdered and his corpse thrown onto the street in Gaza City because of a "suspicious" fucking car he bought. And the Jews are the bad guys according to anti-Semite Ilhan Omar...founding member of "The Squad", which is just the other side of the same extremist coin as "The Freedom Caucus."

Any Gazan who speaks in opposition to Hamas...any Gazan who Hamas even thinks might speak in opposition to Hamas...any Gazan who associates with any other Gazan who might think or speak in opposition to Hamas...any Gazan with a suspicious car is automatically an Israeli collaborator.

Collaborators, my ass. This shit has been going on in Gaza since the emergence of Hamas in 1987. Who strikes fear into the hearts of most Gazans? Hamas, not the IDF. Hamas was created by Islamofascist terrorists, not by Benjamin Netanyahu.

This is Hamas...



Benjamin Netanyahu doesn't have anything to do with this shit. This subhuman scum behavior was built into Hamas by their extremist religious leaders...not by Benjamin Netanyahu.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

This is an opinion as often not supported by other opinions as often as it is supported.

Keep making your victim precipitation/victim facilitation attribution error, finn. Because one way or another that is what you're doing with your obsession about Bibi. I've already acknowledged that Bibi is not a good guy, but Bibi did not create Hamas. Netanyahu did not come to power as the chairman of Likud until 1993, and he did not win the first election for Prime Minister in Israel's for the office of head of state until 1996.

HAMAS WAS FOUNDED AS THE TERRORIST FACTION THAT IT IS IN 1987, SIX YEARS BEFORE NETANYAHU ROSE TO CHAIRMAN OF THE LIKUD PARTY AND NINE YEARS BEFORE HE BECAME PRIME MINISTER. THE SUBHUMAN BEASTS OF HAMAS DID NOT NEED ANY HELP FROM NETANYAHU WHEN IT CAME TO PERPING THEIR HATE OF JEWS AND TERRORISM AGAINST JEWS.

Quit blaming the fucking victims.

I'm not blaming the victims. Indeed some of the victims are my son's close personal friends. That said, Bibi is not part of the solution, he's part of the problem. This is the opinion of 80% of Israelis. Who am I (or you) to argue with them?

Just this morning Ehud Barak, former PM and IDF General, threw some Yiddish shade when asked about how Israelis feel about Netanyahu’s leadership:

“No one trusts Netanyahu, especially with the two mashuganas (Smotrich and Ben-Gvir) in his government."

(Note: Ben-Gvir, Bibi's choice for Minister of National Security, is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre.)

From Tom Friedman this morning, a guy who understands Israel as well as any American:

A senior U.S. official told me that the Biden team left Jerusalem feeling that while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel understands that overreach in Gaza could set the whole neighborhood ablaze, his right-wing coalition partners are eager to fan the flames in the West Bank. Settlers there have killed at least seven Palestinian civilians in acts of revenge in just the past week...

Netanyahu should not allow this, but he has trapped himself. He needs those right-wing extremists in his coalition to keep himself out of jail on corruption charges. But he is going to put all of Israel into the jail of Gaza unless he breaks with those Jewish supremacists.

And Anne Applebaum, esteemed author, historian, Pulitzer Prize winner (and Jew) just released this article:

Netanyahu’s Attack on Democracy Left Israel Unprepared: The prime minister brought about a situation in which all the options are bad.

Just as I don't blame Dubya for 9/11, he is nonetheless responsible for having ignored prescient intelligence about impending Al Qaeda attacks using aviation assets and then overreacting after the fact (particularly by attacking Iraq on concocted grounds). Similar criticism of Bibi is certainly warranted (he too ignored prescient intelligence and is leaning towards an overreaction (per Friedman's warning)).

So, are Barak, Friedman and Applebaum (all Israel-supporting Jews) and 80% of Israelis blaming the victims?

[Mark B]

Originally Posted by finnbow

That is most definitely not what I said (nor what any of the cited articles asserted). What I said was that Bibi cynically propped up Hamas because they were sworn enemies of Fatah (the controlling (and relatively more reasonable) authority on the West Bank). He wanted to keep them at each other's throats (as they've been since 2007) in an effort to ensure than Palestinians would not come together and entertain a two-state solution, something the far-right members of Bibi's governing conservative coalition simply cannot abide (they want to annex most, if not all, of the West Bank).

In short, Bibi recognized that his domestic conservative allies (and most other nations) don't give a shit about Gaza, particularly while run by a murderous, terrorist organization. Keeping Hamas and Fatah at each others throats while painting both with a broad brush as bloodthirsty terrorists helped him eschew a 2-state solution and continue to pursue his settlement policy. And since Gaza is relatively small and largely blockaded, Bibi thought he could contain it while giving himself a freer hand to pursue his plans on the West Bank. Now that this attack has occurred, it appears that his strategic gamble has blown up in his face (in the eyes of 80% of Israelis anyway).

BTW, the IDF and Israeli intelligence officials did indeed warn Bibi that his attempted (and hugely unpopular) judicial reform proposal and the attendant social unrest would embolden Israel's enemies. Moreover, immediately before the attack, US and Egyptian intelligence warned Bibi on possible trouble from Gaza, but he blew them off thinking he had Gaza effectively bottled up.

What I am saying is that the situation there is not as simple and straightforward as Ike and others characterize it (Israelis good, Palestinians bad). It's far more complex than that.

That's a lot of of explaining for something I didn't claim you said.

I see nothing in Bibi's policy toward the Palestinian Authority and Hamas that would lead a neutral observer to believe it would encourage Hamas to stage a massive terrorist attack on Israel.

What opinion pieces or intelligence was there prior to Oct 7th that concluded that this policy would lead to such an attack?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Mark B

That's a lot of of explaining for something I didn't claim you said.

In my response, I provided these 2 links. They show that both the Israeli military and intelligence services warned that Bibi's policies emboldened their enemies and increased the likelihood of an attack. Don't blame me for not having taken the time to read them.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...7041690544571/

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...te-2023-07-28/

[Mark B]

Originally Posted by finnbow

In my response, I provided these 2 links. They show that both the Israeli military and intelligence services warned that Bibi's policies emboldened their enemies and increased the likelihood of an attack. Don't blame me for not having taken the time to read them.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...7041690544571/

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...te-2023-07-28/

Snarky insults doesn't lend credibility to your response.

I read the linked articles before my initial response, and I didn't -- and still don't -- think any of the articles answered the very specific question I asked:

I see nothing in Bibi's policy toward the Palestinian Authority and Hamas that would lead a neutral observer to believe it would encourage Hamas to stage a massive terrorist attack on Israel.

Quoting the warning from the UPI article:

[QUOTE/] -- Israeli intelligence said it warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government that passing judicial reforms that sparked widespread protests would put the country at risk and embolden its enemies, according to officials on Friday.

The Israeli Defense Forces said that the Israeli Air Force chief Maj. Gen. Tomer Bar warned in a recent meeting with a forum of senior commanders that Israel's enemies may attempt to test them because of protesting reservists who said they would not serve because of the reforms. [/QUOTE]

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Mark B

Snarky insults doesn't lend credibility to your response.

I read the linked articles before my initial response, and I didn't -- and still don't -- think any of the articles answered the very specific question I asked:

I see nothing in Bibi's policy toward the Palestinian Authority and Hamas that would lead a neutral observer to believe it would encourage Hamas to stage a massive terrorist attack on Israel.

Quoting the warning from the UPI article:

[QUOTE/] -- Israeli intelligence said it warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government that passing judicial reforms that sparked widespread protests would put the country at risk and embolden its enemies, according to officials on Friday.

The Israeli Defense Forces said that the Israeli Air Force chief Maj. Gen. Tomer Bar warned in a recent meeting with a forum of senior commanders that Israel's enemies may attempt to test them because of protesting reservists who said they would not serve because of the reforms.

I guess I'm not clear how emboldening an attack and encouraging an attack are materially different though I didn't use the latter characterization, you did. And all I did was quote officials from the Israeli Defense and Intelligence officials.

Here's more for ya:

"In one survey of Jewish Israelis, 86 percent of respondents—including 79 percent of government supporters—said that the catastrophic assault from Gaza was a failure of the country’s leadership...(T)he litany of Netanyahu’s failures is long. By his own admission, he purposely propped up Hamas as a counterbalance to the more moderate Palestinian Authority in order to keep the Palestinian public divided and prevent a negotiated two-state solution...

And the rot runs deeper. Since returning to power in December, Netanyahu has spent months shredding Israel’s social solidarity and projecting weakness to its foes. He provoked unprecedented domestic unrest with his coalition’s deeply unpopular attempt to gut Israel’s judiciary, pitting the country’s people against one another. He fired and then unfired his defense minister for warning that the plan was causing divisions that were undermining Israel’s security...

The disaster of October 7 was the overdetermined outcome of years of Netanyahu’s poor choices."

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...ailure/675722/