Darren Wilson's Side of the Story

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Officially, Israel is not a Jewish state, never has been. It's a "Jewish state" in the same way that America is a "Christian nation". In both cases the attempt to identify multi-confessional nations in terms of the dominant religion is an attempt on the part of the right wing to establish theocratic rule and to partially or wholly disenfranchise religious minorities.

There is currently an effort to put through the Israeli Knesset a bill which, if passed into law, would officially make Israel "the Nation-State of the Jewish People". It's highly controversial, even among Israeli Jews.

John

For much the same reason (i.e., the inability of different groups in Israeli society to agree on the purpose of the state, on the state's identity, and on a long-term vision for the state), the state of Israel does not have a constitution.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

You can dislike it all you want. When I repeatedly hear the parties in this conflict referred to as "Palestinians and Jews" as by this asshole BBC reporter and his "...Palestinians hugely suffer at Jewish hands...", I know exactly where he's coming from. Replace that with "...Palestinians hugely suffer at Israeli hands...", and although I may object to the one-sidedness of the comment, the latter does not imply what the former implies. And you've used that same language right along, on many occasions, finn.

Bullshit. I use Jew when I mean Jew and Israeli when I mean Israeli. You're the one who routinely conflates the two in order to characterize any criticism of Israeli policy as anti-Semitic. I've been tired of this AIPAC tactic since long before hearing your first knee-jerk, factually-challenged ideological rant. Give it a rest, Johnny One-Note.

BTW, I assume you're aware that the IDF is nearly 100% Jewish (other than a handful of Druze and Bedouins), despite 25% of Israel's population being Muslim. So the BBC guy's comment, while certainly tasteless under the circumstances, is largely true.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

"...Palestinians hugely suffer at Jewish hands...", I know exactly where he's coming from. Replace that with "...Palestinians hugely suffer at Israeli hands...", and although I may object to the one-sidedness of the comment, the latter does not imply what the former implies.

The fact of the matter here is, one-sided and incomplete as it is, Palestinians have indeed suffered at Jewish hands. By this I mean that Jews, acting as Jews and not "Israelis", have indeed caused suffering among Palestinians. They have also caused suffering among Israelis of all stripes, including other Jews. I'm thinking, among other things, of the murder by burning of Mohammed Abu Khdeir and the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.

In most cases, when these things occur, the Israeli authorities regard them as crimes and treat them accordingly.

John

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Boreas

The fact of the matter here is, one-sided and incomplete as it is, Palestinians have indeed suffered at Jewish hands. By this I mean that Jews, acting as Jews and not "Israelis", have indeed caused suffering among Palestinians. They have also caused suffering among Israelis of all stripes, including other Jews. I'm thinking, among other things, of the murder by burning of Mohammed Abu Khdeir and the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.

In most cases, when these things occur, the Israeli authorities regard them as crimes and treat them accordingly.

John

And IMHO, Israelis (and Palestinians as well) have suffered at the hands of Muslims acting as Muslims to an even greater degree. Would that the Palestinian perps were treated with the same level of justice by Palestinian authorities as Israeli perps are by Israeli authorities.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

And IMHO, Israelis (and Palestinians as well) have suffered at the hands of Muslims acting as Muslims to an even greater degree. Would that the Palestinian perps were treated with the same level of justice by Palestinian authorities as Israeli perps are by Israeli authorities.

Assuming that we're talking about Muslims living in Israel and the Occupied Territories, I don't agree that, to any meaningful degree, these Muslims-as-Muslims bear any more guilt than do the Jews-as-Jews. I would also submit that such arguments are irrelevant since there's plenty of guilt on both sides, so much that attempts to determine which side is worse are pointless and absurd. I would say that the same is true for Israelis acting as Israelis ans Palestinians as Palestinians.

The thing is that this madness will never end until one side unilaterally decides to stop. You won't like this but, for it to work, the side with all the power needs to go first. That's Israel, of course, and part of what "stopping" entails is to stop appropriating the land owned by Palestinians and surrounding their communities with guard towers and razor wire. And no more fucking settlements! The constant stream of thefts and humiliations that Palestinians are subjected to just keeps picking and picking at the scabs of 70 years of subjugation. Until that stops, there's no chance for peace.

John

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Assuming that we're talking about Muslims living in Israel and the Occupied Territories, I don't agree that, to any meaningful degree, these Muslims-as-Muslims bear any more guilt than do the Jews-as-Jews. I would also submit that such arguments are irrelevant since there's plenty of guilt on both sides, so much that attempts to determine which side is worse are pointless and absurd. I would say that the same is true for Israelis acting as Israelis ans Palestinians as Palestinians.

The thing is that this madness will never end until one side unilaterally decides to stop. You won't like this but, for it to work, the side with all the power needs to go first. That's Israel, of course, and part of what "stopping" entails is to stop appropriating the land owned by Palestinians and surrounding their communities with guard towers and razor wire. And no more fucking settlements! The constant stream of thefts and humiliations that Palestinians are subjected to just keeps picking and picking at the scabs of 70 years of subjugation. Until that stops, there's no chance for peace.

John

The day the last rocket or mortar round is fired into an Israeli neighborhood is the day it will stop. Israelis have no interest in prolonging this madness. But don't start with this "Palestinian land" nonsense. There was no such thing as Palestinian land when Jordan annexed the west bank and Egypt annexed Gaza in 1950. No rockets, no mortars, no backpacks full of gelignite going off in Sunday markets. The terrorism didn't start until the Jews annexed the same dirt after the 67 war.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

The day the last rocket or mortar round is fired into an Israeli neighborhood is the day it will stop. Israelis have no interest in prolonging this madness...

That shows how little you understand Bibi's "maintain the current status quo" policies (or worse yet, Lieberman's or Bennett's). I'm starting to think you know even less about modern-day Israel politics than you know about architecture, if that's possible.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

The day the last rocket or mortar round is fired into an Israeli neighborhood is the day it will stop. Israelis have no interest in prolonging this madness.

Sorry but the daily humiliation of ordinary Palestinians is the first thing that needs to stop. Until that happens there's a ready-made rationale for the extremists to launch their rockets.

But don't start with this "Palestinian land" nonsense. There was no such thing as Palestinian land when Jordan annexed the west bank and Egypt annexed Gaza in 1950.

There were people living on the land who had been there for centuries. It doesn't matter what they were called and Palestine/Palestinians wasn't some fictional creation of the residents. The term for the land had existed in one form or another for over 3,000 years. It's just that the Hebrews never used it.

And I've said this before. When Jordan annexed the West Bank all that happened was that the people living there became Jordanians. When Egypt annexed Gaza the people there wole up to find themselves Egyptian. When Israel "annexed" Palestine they stole the land and dispossessed the people, pushed them off into Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon..... into camps like Sabra and Shatila.

No rockets, no mortars, no backpacks full of gelignite going off in Sunday markets. The terrorism didn't start until the Jews annexed the same dirt after the 67 war.

The terrorism started long before that, Ike, about 20 years before and you know it.

John

[Ike Bana]

[QUOTE=Boreas;256221
The terrorism started long before that, Ike, about 20 years before and you know it.

John[/QUOTE]

I'm not going,to waste my time debating about humiliation or about history with you...except for your final comment.

Long before? You mean like the Arab riots of 1936...right?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Long before? You mean like the Arab riots of 1936...right?

Sure, we can do that.

"According to official British figures covering the whole revolt, the army and police killed more than 2,000 Arabs in combat, 108 were hanged,[8] and 961 died because of what they described as "gang and terrorist activities".[1] In an analysis of the British statistics, Walid Khalidi estimates 19,792 casualties for the Arabs, with 5,032 dead: 3,832 killed by the British and 1,200 dead because of "terrorism", and 14,760 wounded.[1] Over ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population between 20 and 60 was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled.[12] Estimates of the number of Palestinian Jews killed range from 91[13] to several hundred.[14]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2...t_in_Palestine

John