The House just voted

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Good, bad, or indifferent passage of this bill is quite an accomplishment, maybe the biggest since the reform of the tax code.

Pete

Yes, it is. Every president since TR wanted to do something about health care and they couldn't get it done. This is quite a legislative accomplishment on the part of Obama and the Dems. Maybe this bill can be the nucleus of significant reform over time. TR's cousin didn't get anything like our current Social Security program passed. That has been reformed, amended and expanded over time but Social Security was never riddled with give-aways to corporate interests the way this health care bill is.

John

[piece-itpete]

Oh believe me, I don't like it

Just calling a spade a spade. Can we still use that expression?

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I took the "Kill Bill" avatar down because I'm waiting to see what comes out of reconciliation. I'm not optimistic but I think it's safe to say that the House won't accept the Senate bill as written so changes will occur.

As it stands now the bill is pretty damned bad. Here's a list of ten of the worst things about the bill compiled by Firedog Lake.

How bad is the bill?

1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not

2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS

3. After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses.

4. Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court

5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays

6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins.

7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others

8. Grants monopolies to to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.

9. No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years

10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of 4 will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.

This is only one source, and one with a left bias, but it's largely consistent with other critiques I've read.

John

Holy Shit. That is bad. Assuming that it is all true.

But, now,.....There was some talking head on t.v. last night saying that the pre-existing condition ban IS still included in the bill?

I don't know what to believe anymore. But I will tell you one thing; I see the stain of insurance lobbyists all over it. And the inclusion of the "right of choice" into the bill smells of a concession to conservatives---actually, the whole f**kin' thing does. It all seems designed to steer even more money to the already well-heeled private insurance industry. I would still like to see a true "Single Payer" type system in place, but our government is just so GD corrupt it's unbelieveable. Instead of getting insurance and pharma execs out of the way, we're handing them the whole kit-n-kaboodle. We can't seem to do anything without a million parasites piling on to steal every fucking cent, and then some.

What gets me is all of this "I trust private industry over government", or "I trust government over private industry.".... If anyone hasn't seen that they have become one and the same.................

I dunno, I am just really confused right now. I no longer trust anyone.
So just leave me alone for a while.

Dave

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

I dunno, I am just really confused right now. I no longer trust anyone.
So just leave me alone for a while.

Dave

I know the feeling.

John

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I took the "Kill Bill" avatar down because I'm waiting to see what comes out of reconciliation. I'm not optimistic but I think it's safe to say that the House won't accept the Senate bill as written so changes will occur.

As it stands now the bill is pretty damned bad. Here's a list of ten of the worst things about the bill compiled by Firedog Lake.

How bad is the bill?

1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not

2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS

3. After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses.

4. Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court

5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays

6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins.

7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others

8. Grants monopolies to to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.

9. No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years

10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of 4 will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.

This is only one source, and one with a left bias, but it's largely consistent with other critiques I've read.

John

Somebody please point out any positive in this bill.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Good, bad, or indifferent passage of this bill is quite an accomplishment, maybe the biggest since the reform of the tax code.

Pete

Pete with all respect, drinking left wing cool aide is no different than drinking right wing cool-aide.

The right is happier about this bill than is the left. They just have not told the Palin lovers that they won yet so as not to get a backlash from the left till it's law.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Yes, it is. Every president since TR wanted to do something about health care and they couldn't get it done. This is quite a legislative accomplishment on the part of Obama and the Dems.

John, I am disappointed. It's a victory for corporate helathcare and NOTHING else.

We lost, Obie lost. The right won, the dolts will be celebrating in the streets when it is explained to them.
The only reform we might get is if we are allowed to cut a check for the CEO of our health plans and deposit it in his personal account directly.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Oh believe me, I don't like it

Well, that's probably one of the few things we can agree on, although for totally opposite reasons.

The Right has been saying that 2/3 of the country are opposed to health care reform. That's always been a lie but now about 2/3 of the country are opposed to the Senate bill. The 30 - 40% of the Right who have always been opposed to reform have been joined by a similar number from the Left who feel the bill doesn't go far enough in helping the people and too far in helping the health care industry.

Better get used to it, everyone! The Senate bill is what's going to become law. The more I've thought about it I've come to realize that it's the only thing the Senate will pass so the House will put on a kabuki play to pretend to fight for their version but the Senate bill, or something nearly identical to it, is what will come out of Conference.

Just calling a spade a spade. Can we still use that expression?

Pete

Cards & gardening only.

John

[piece-itpete]

Sheesh, try to compliment you guys

And ALL SIXTY DEM VOTES and it's somehow the right. Right. Very nice.

Pete

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Sheesh, try to compliment you guys

And ALL SIXTY DEM VOTES and it's somehow the right. Right. Very nice.

Pete

In most respects the bill is a victory for the Right. I don't mean Republicans except in the fact that they'll likely gain political capital from legislation nobody will like. Rather I mean conservatives win. That includes many Democrats like Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh and Mary Landreux. It was conservative Democrats (and Lieberman) who succeeded in stripping most of the meaningful reform out of the bill.

There may be enough real reform in the final bill to allow for improvement over time. I sure hope so.

Of course, all that has happened so far is that the first of several cloture votes has taken place. Nobody has voted for a bill. They've voted for a vote. We'll see whether we get 60 votes for the final bill. It only takes 51 to pass it so we may see some people like Bernie Sanders voting their conscience.

John