The Germans dont want to supply cluster bombs

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Oerets

I understand this all to well. I would be giving them F16's Warthogs C130 gunships.....

Here's the thing...even with the firepower of these they're still not as effective as a 155 cluster artillery shell. And...Warthogs and C130 gunships can be shot down...an artillery shell cannot.

[Oerets]

When asked my opinion much like in WWII and the use of the A Bomb against the Japanese. This use in horrendous and should be avoided. Then once again war's are not humane are they now? Never were never will be.

The use of these weapons nuke and cluster have good reasons for why they have been used in the past. I only wish the human race would grow out of the need to settle differences in such ways. Doubt we ever will move beyond our basic animal aggressive behavior towards other humans.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Oerets

When asked my opinion much like in WWII and the use of the A Bomb against the Japanese. This use in horrendous and should be avoided. Then once again war's are not humane are they now? Never were never will be.

The use of these weapons nuke and cluster have good reasons for why they have been used in the past. I only wish the human race would grow out of the need to settle differences in such ways. Doubt we ever will move beyond our basic animal aggressive behavior towards other humans.

And the decision to use nukes in Japan was for two reasons - first to preclude the need for a bloody amphibious invasion and second to impress upon Stalin that we weren't interested in ceding some of Japan's conquered territory (other than the Kuril Islands) to Russian communism.

[Oerets]

Originally Posted by finnbow

And the decision to use nukes in Japan was for two reasons - first to preclude the need for a bloody amphibious invasion and second to impress upon Stalin that we weren't interested in ceding some of Japan's conquered territory (other than the Kuril Islands) to Russian communism.

My wife's Father was a Marine onboard a LST on his way to invade when they dropped the big one. So know all to well the reasons it was used. All valid due to the suicidal nature of the Japanese government at the time.

Much like today violence against other humans from with hate speech up to taking a life. No matter the means is something I feel we need to overcome. While some are inclined to believe making war so terrible and costly that it will then be avoided or stopped.

The use of cluster bombs much like mines is a weapon that has a history of killing the unintended years after a conflict. Are outlawed by many countries for good reason.

This action could be the slipper slop to other even more destructive weapons on the battlefield. Once Russia starts loosing ground in mass they will be force to up the ante is would seem.

[Dondilion]

What is obvious is that the Ukrainian counter offensive is not meeting its political time table. Much was expected of the Ukrainians based on the early performance of the Russians.
However, active US military officers and Lloyd Austin have been hinting that the Russians are adapting and making adjustments, and gathering a huge army that stalemate is the most likely outcome.
Now the Ukraine counter offensive is seeing deep defense backed by effective alligators in stand off. Ukraine was reluctant to deploy its best...the 47 mechanized. It would be criminal to expect Ukraine to carry out this assault without effective air cover to counter the range of the alligators. F16s could counter, but the time does not fit with the coming political optics.
So what is left...cluster bombs deliverd by artillery. But, but, but...you lose the moral high ground. The moral high ground is especially important in the pr battle with respect to Russians. It is an important air, sometimes an affectation.
Cluster bombs have been well documented in West. Now watch your television and observe the squirming and gymnastics.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

But, but, but...you lose the moral high ground. The moral high ground is especially important in the pr battle with respect to Russians. It is an important air, sometimes an affectation.
Cluster bombs have been well documented in West. Now watch your television and observe the squirming and gymnastics.

Bullshit. It is impossible to lose the moral high ground to Russia.

[RickeyM]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Bullshit. It is impossible to lose the moral high ground to Russia.

The argument would be made that all Putin had to do was not invade and all of this would be moot.

[Mark B]

The calls not to supply cluster munitions to Ukraine are grossly misguided. President Biden continues to make difficult but correct decisions in support of Ukraine.

[Oerets]

The truth of the matter is Ukraine is putting up a very good fight against Russia. This war is one of attrition and so Russia has the numbers to last longer. The only way Ukraine can win is if and when Russia looses it's will to fight. If Putin were to no longer be in charge is the only way it appears this will happen.

It can be argued that hurting Russia even more will hasten the removal of Putin. The problem with me is just where is the line we don't cross in helping the Ukraine people. Cluster Bombs OK today, tomorrow what when they fail to stop the Russians?

Afraid that as long as other countries support Russia. That little will be accomplished other then prolonging the war. The Biden administration is under pressure to end the war before next year. Trying to be in the fight and not get dirty. Supplying materials and sanctions. Not enough of either or fast enough. I would think making Ukraine a NATO member with a unified vote would be a better weapon. Never happen because of the fragile nature of the alliance.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

What is obvious is that the Ukrainian counter offensive is not meeting its political time table.

We all understand that you're a cheerleader for the worst war criminal murderer of the last fifty years, for christ's sake. Putin is a war criminal, this invasion is an international criminal action.