ObamaCare and Bankruptcy

[MrPots]

Originally Posted by whell

Why not actually post evidence to back up your claims that I'm somehow "wrong" about something? You know, make a constructive contribution to the thread, if you're able.

Because it wouldn't do any good. You think I'm not aware of how you operate on this board? No matter how solid the evidence you always still deny it it's authenticity. You've done it countless time to every poster on this board.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Yeah, its been a few days and I'm still waiting for any kind of fact - based responses. Not going to hold my breath.

I did come across a little nugget that I saw a few months back, and thought I'd post it here, since it has bearing on the discussion. As Finn did above, start talking about consumerism in health care purchases, Health Savings Accounts, etc., and folks on the left will reliably start talking about emergency services as an example of why consumerism doesn't work.

Turns out that's not a bad argument, but only as it relates to somewhere between 2% and 10% (depending on what study you want to look at) of health care spending annually. That leaves - conservatively - 90% of health care costs that might be better managed with the consumer making informed decisions about their health care spending.

Another lefty red herring removed from the pond.

You're a manipulated fool, Whell, with far less knowledge, understanding and insight into the economics of health care than you purport to have. Your post infers that 90-98% of medical patients purchase health care just like they purchase a TV or a car (by thoroughly researching relative cost and quality of their options). Health care is a good where the average consumer does not have the ability to gauge the relative quality of what is being purchased (doctor, medical tests, pharmaceuticals, hospitals, etc.). Without this knowledge, a conventional supply & demand relationship cannot exist.

As for a HSA, I had one for a number of years before I retired. It accomplished nothing in terms of helping me sort out health care options, but it did save me some taxes. Low earners, however, don't share the income tax advantages of an HSA (it doesn't reduce income tax for those who pay little or no income tax while providing greater benefits to those in higher tax brackets).

If you actually seek a better understanding the economics of health care, I recommend checking out this link which studies the tenuous supply and demand relationship in health care.

https://2012books.lardbucket.org/boo...health-ca.html

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

You're a manipulated fool, Whell, with far less knowledge, understanding and insight into the economics of health care than you purport to have. Your post infers that 90-98% of medical patients purchase health care just like they purchase a TV or a car (by thoroughly researching relative cost and quality of their options).

No, I'm not saying that. Apparently, you just can't grasp basic concepts, or possibly are unable to read with comprehension. I'm saying that one of the primary reasons for healthcare inflation over the past several decades is that there is no true consumerism in most individual healthcare spending. I'm saying that this SHOULD happen more than it does. I'm saying that the vast majority of healthcare spending - which is non-emergency medical treatment - could find that the cost curve would bend in the consumer's favor if more individuals were involved with the cost - side of the purchase more than they are today.

Originally Posted by finnbow

As for a HSA, I had one for a number of years before I retired. It accomplished nothing in terms of helping me sort out health care options, but it did save me some taxes. Low earners, however, don't share the income tax advantages of an HSA (it doesn't reduce income tax for those who pay little or no income tax while providing greater benefits to those in higher tax brackets).

Well, your summary above ignores about 60+ percent of the advantages of participating in an HSA/HDHP plan...and may demonstrate that basic math is lost on you.

First, to enroll in an HSA plan and fund it, the insured must also have enrolled in a high deductible health plan (HDHP). These plans are often less costly - sometimes significantly less costly - than more traditional health plans. Savvy individuals often take the savings in premium and fund their HSA's with it. As I've often suggested to folks: how do you want to spend your money? Give it to the insurance carrier, or keep it and fund your HSA with it?

Second, assuming that both your HSA contributions and your premium deductions were deducted from your paycheck on a pre-tax basis, I'll assume that the reduction in premium deductions (versus a traditional health plan) offset at least in part the tax savings from your HSA, unless you were putting 100% or more of the savings into your HSA.

Third, unlike premiums, and unlike Flexible Spending Accounts, any funds that are in your HSA are yours to spend (or save) however you wish. While you can't put any new money into your HSA after you enroll in Medicare, you can use any existing HSA funds to pay Medicare part B or part D premiums. Since the funds paying those premiums are made with pre-tax earnings, the net effect is like paying those premiums at a discount.

Originally Posted by finnbow

If you actually seek a better understanding the economics of health care, I recommend checking out this link which studies the tenuous supply and demand relationship in health care.

https://2012books.lardbucket.org/boo...health-ca.html

Yeah, I'm fine, but I think you might need brush up on your math skills.

[whell]

Originally Posted by MrPots

Because it wouldn't do any good. You think I'm not aware of how you operate on this board? No matter how solid the evidence you always still deny it it's authenticity. You've done it countless time to every poster on this board.

Translated: "Don't challenge my liberal dogma with your facts. It makes me mad."

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

No, I'm not saying that. Apparently, you just can't grasp basic concepts, or possibly are unable to read with comprehension. I'm saying that one of the primary reasons for healthcare inflation over the past several decades is that there is no true consumerism in most individual healthcare spending. I'm saying that this SHOULD happen more than it does. I'm saying that the vast majority of healthcare spending - which is non-emergency medical treatment - could find that the cost curve would bend in the consumer's favor if more individuals were involved with the cost - side of the purchase more than they are today.

I guess you missed the fundamental point that conventional market forces don't, haven't and can't work in health care delivery.

Yeah, I'm fine, but I think you might need brush up on your math skills.

With two engineering degrees, an MBA and having tutored calculus and differential equations for several years to supplement income in college, my math skills are just fine, thank you.

[whell]

[QUOTE=finnbow;353438]I guess you missed the fundamental point that conventional market forces don't, haven't and can't work in health care delivery.

We'll need to disagree on this point. Your stating an opinion and while you're entitled to that opinion, there are plenty of opinions and studies that suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by finnbow

With two engineering degrees, an MBA and having tutored calculus and differential equations for several years to supplement income in college, my math skills are just fine, thank you.

Uh huh.

[Oerets]

When the wife visited the emergency room and then four days of hospital stay for Gall Bladder surgery and recovery. Just how was one to question or compare cost? No you are in the middle of a life threatening event. It was bad enough to be on the phone before surgery with the insurance company as they were removing her, making sure ALL of the Doctors were on the list.

Health insurance is for a service that can be when needed is needed right then and now. No time to negotiate or shop around. Good reasons for a not market place based system of delivery.



Barney

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

We'll need to disagree on this point. Your stating an opinion and while you're entitled to that opinion, there are plenty of opinions and studies that suggest otherwise.

It is not an opinion that nearly all consumers of health care have no ability to ascertain the relative quality, cost, and efficacy of all potential care givers and therapies for each and every health condition they may encounter. Without this ability, a conventional supply/demand relationship cannot exist.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

It is not an opinion that the nearly all consumers of health care have no ability to ascertain the relative quality, cost, and efficacy of all potential care givers and therapies for each and every health condition they may encounter. Without this ability, a conventional supply/demand relationship cannot exist.

I've already posted examples in this thread of where consumers can go to get exactly that info. its health insurance carriers who are very interested in making that info available, along with physician and hospital ratings. They've been doing it for years.

Just becuase you choose to ignore the info doesn't mean that it's not out there.

[whell]

Originally Posted by Oerets

When the wife visited the emergency room and then four days of hospital stay for Gall Bladder surgery and recovery. Just how was one to question or compare cost? No you are in the middle of a life threatening event. It was bad enough to be on the phone before surgery with the insurance company as they were removing her, making sure ALL of the Doctors were on the list.

Health insurance is for a service that can be when needed is needed right then and now. No time to negotiate or shop around. Good reasons for a not market place based system of delivery.

Barney

This has already been addressed in post 80 of this thread.