I think they're lying. And I think they know it.

[doucanoe]

You could always move to the Western European Socialist country of your choosing and pay @29% in national income tax and an additional VAT of 20%. That is of course after you pay property taxes where they apply and then put gas in your Hybrid at $5-6 per gallon equivalent.

Or... Just hang around for a spell. Pelosi is working on that as we speak. Your wish is just a few bills away.

RC

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

You could always move to the Western European Socialist country of your choosing and pay @29% in national income tax and an additional VAT of 20%. That is of course after you pay property taxes where they apply and then put gas in your Hybrid at $5-6 per gallon equivalent.

Or... Just hang around for a spell. Pelosi is working on that as we speak. Your wish is just a few bills away.

Huh. Don't recall wishing for anything other than what's best for America. Reagan told me the Laugher curve was the be-all-end-all and we should shift our entire economic model because of it. Okay, I'm game Ronnie. What I do object to is people knowingly lying. We started this whole "lower taxes" deal with the idea that it would raise more money for the government and get us out of debt. Well, do we still want to do that or not? Is the Lafer curve wrong now if it says we need to raise taxes becuase that's what's best for America? Are we too greedy to do that? Just give me mine and to Hell with America? Just lower taxes and the concequences be damned?

Lowering taxes didn't work. If we care about America, it's time to stop digging. Raise taxes. Pay the bills.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

You could always move to the Western European Socialist country of your choosing and pay @29% in national income tax and an additional VAT of 20%. That is of course after you pay property taxes where they apply and then put gas in your Hybrid at $5-6 per gallon equivalent.

"Love it or leave it" is alive and well here I see. You know, if you Righties would open your eyes you'd see that some other countries have some things worth emulating.

You might also do well to remember what that "Good Ol' Yankee Ingenuity" actually was, (emphasis on "was"). It was the ability to take what was best from any source and craft a unique solution that was better than any of its predecessors. We don't do that any more. We're so besotted by the notion of "American Exceptionalism" that we believe there's no better way to do anything other than the "way we've always done it".

Or... Just hang around for a spell. Pelosi is working on that as we speak. Your wish is just a few bills away.

I wish we would take a few pages from the way some European countries handle the social contract but nothing has transpired to give me any hope of that. All you have to do is look at the pig's breakfast that's likely to be foisted on us as "Health Care Reform" to see just how far from a social democracy we are and how close to a corporatocracy.

John

[d-ray657]

Let's see, the exponential growth in the national debt began in the Reagan years, continued during the Bush Sr. years, leveled out during the Clinton years, and accelerated to rocket speed during the Dub years. So all these years that the GOP has tried to label the Democrats as tax and spend, it was really a compliment. The Democrats paid for what they bought; the GOP spent more, but they put it on a credit card. Which one of those paths is fiscally responsible?

Not only did the Dub administration spend outlandishly on an unnecessary war, they took the resources away from a more justifiable war in Afghanistan, at a time when we were close to getting Osama Bin Laden, which means it will cost this administration considerably more to finish the job there. And now the GOP is going to do everything it can to keep the current administration from cleaning up the mess.

They must be wearing asbestos underwear, because their pants are on fire.

Regards,

D-Ray

[doucanoe]

Originally Posted by Boreas

"Love it or leave it" is alive and well here I see. You know, if you Righties would open your eyes you'd see that some other countries have some things worth emulating.

You might also do well to remember what that "Good Ol' Yankee Ingenuity" actually was, (emphasis on "was"). It was the ability to take what was best from any source and craft a unique solution that was better than any of its predecessors. We don't do that any more. We're so besotted by the notion of "American Exceptionalism" that we believe there's no better way to do anything other than the "way we've always done it".



I wish we would take a few pages from the way some European countries handle the social contract but nothing has transpired to give me any hope of that. All you have to do is look at the pig's breakfast that's likely to be foisted on us as "Health Care Reform" to see just how far from a social democracy we are and how close to a corporatocracy.

John

We do need health care reform but I have not seen a palatable solution provided by either party yet. As far as whats being currently presented, one would have to assume that even the current admin. and congress doesn't appear to like it much as they have excluded themselves from the need to participate.

I understand that Germany's national health care program is starting to quake under the weight of it all. It's the oldest system of it's kind from what I have read.

RC

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by doucanoe

We do need health care reform but I have not seen a palatable solution provided by either party yet. As far as whats being currently presented, one would have to assume that even the current admin. and congress doesn't appear to like it much as they have excluded themselves from the need to participate.

I don't like what's being put forward either. I hesitate to say "by either party" because it's clear that the Republicans have no interest in effecting changes that aren't intended to benefit the insurance industry. Democrats, on the other hand, seem to want to make real improvements to our health care system but are too beholden to the health care monopoly to take things very far.

I understand that Germany's national health care program is starting to quake under the weight of it all. It's the oldest system of it's kind from what I have read.

I hadn't heard that. In any event, I'd want to hear it from multiple independent sources. The industry has been spreading false doom and gloom scenarios about other country's health care programs ever since this whole thing started. There's a lot of deliberate misinformation out there.

John

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I don't like what's being put forward either. I hesitate to say "by either party" because it's clear that the Republicans have no interest in effecting changes that aren't intended to benefit the insurance industry. Democrats, on the other hand, seem to want to make real improvements to our health care system but are too beholden to the health care monopoly to take things very far.

BINGO!

[hillbilly]

Tennessee has been talking about it and has made a couple good points. They reminding folks of how fast the TN-Care system went to hell. They said anytime it is easy for folks to get free health insurance, more folks will lean towards the free rather than providing for themselves. Folks that got on TN-Care started going to the ER when they couldn't see their regular doctor the moment they wanted to see him, and when it's not an emergency it hurts the hell out of the system. Folks that got on TN-Care also started rushing to the doctor anytime they, or their child got a little sniffle that'd gone away in a day or two without the need to see a doctor.

Folks paying for their own insurance that have to spend their own money for a copay each doctor visit are far less likely to waste money over a little sniffle.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

Tennessee has been talking about it and has made a couple good points. They reminding folks of how fast the TN-Care system went to hell. They said anytime it is easy for folks to get free health insurance, more folks will lean towards the free rather than providing for themselves. Folks that got on TN-Care started going to the ER when they couldn't see their regular doctor the moment they wanted to see him, and when it's not an emergency it hurts the hell out of the system. Folks that got on TN-Care also started rushing to the doctor anytime they, or their child got a little sniffle that'd gone away in a day or two without the need to see a doctor.

The thing about using the emergency room as your primary health care provider is that the uninsured do that too. Except they do it every time. At least with TN-Care folks could see their plan doctor some of the time. Also, I don't see a problem with people erring on the side of caution and seeing a doctor when it might not be necessary. That's far better than not seeing a doctor when it is necessary.

Folks paying for their own insurance that have to spend their own money for a copay each doctor visit are far less likely to waste money over a little sniffle.

But you see , none of the health care plans before Congress include anything in the way of free health care beyond Medicaid which already exists as a means tested program. The "Public Option" you hear about isn't free and it isn't "government health care". It's also a means tested program with private health care provided through private insurance companies.

John

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I hadn't heard that. In any event, I'd want to hear it from multiple independent sources. The industry has been spreading false doom and gloom scenarios about other country's health care programs ever since this whole thing started. There's a lot of deliberate misinformation out there.

John

Grassley and Hatch flat out lied about the Canadian system, not deliberate mis-information, they both lied and they know they were lying, and Hatch is a Bishop? Some Bishop.