The Trump Crime Family - Legal Issues

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

I did actively criticize the Mar a Lago raid. There's no question that there's a very significant difference between how Justice/FBI is approaching Biden's stray documents versus Trump. For example, there's been all manner of leaks - some factually wrong - about what was found at Mar a Lago. No similar leaks have been made about Biden's documents.

Indeed there is. Biden and Pence both cooperated fully with the Archives and DOJ. Had Trump fully cooperated with Archives and DOJ during the 1.5 years before the subpoena, he would have been fine. You'll note that not one single document handed back by Trump before the subpoena is mentioned in the indictment. The indictment comes from the documents he lied about, concealed and obstructed. Therein lies the crime. Even Bill Barr said that the charges were serious, justified and brought on exclusively by Trump's own behavior. Moreover, Barr said that efforts like yours attempting to paint Trump as the victim in this affair are "ridiculous."

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Indeed there is. Biden and Pence both cooperated fully with the Archives and DOJ. Had Trump fully cooperated with Archives and DOJ during the 1.5 years before the subpoena, he would have been fine.

That's certainly the way it has been characterized by the media. However, there's a legal process described here where documents can be recovered by the National Archives described here: https://www.archives.gov/research/re...sequences.html. This is a civil process, not a criminal process.

Smith is pursuing criminal charges. "Obstruction" seems to be a pretty subjective construct. The Espionage Act charges are a different matter entirely. To obtain a conviction against Trump, the government will need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he willfully retained the material and failed to turn it over to the government.

We don't know all the info that the prosecution and the defense have in this case. For example, if Trump didn't pack the contents of every box - which seems likely - and didn't know where every single box was kept - which also seems likely - did he have "intent" to not return all the materials. As we've heard before, intent may be key.

Again, not a defense of Trump (are you paying attention here Chickie? Probably not). What's puzzling to me is that clearly neither Biden nor Pence are protected individuals under the Presidential Records Act. So, why the low key approach in those cases by Justice and the FBI?

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by whell

Again, not a defense of Trump (are you paying attention here Chickie? Probably not). What's puzzling to me is that clearly neither Biden nor Pence are protected individuals under the Presidential Records Act. So, why the low key approach in those cases by Justice and the FBI?

Since you have brought up the Presidential Records Act, why did Trump claim that these documents were his to take in the first place? I am certain that his attorneys advised him otherwise and he ignored them and now you blame it on the FBI? Fucking nuts???

Lets hear from Corcoran and see what he has to say.

[Chicks]

Tee time with the traitor, shameless love. That’s how Miami rolls for indicted Trump
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...276325866.html

Whell's World.

[RickeyM]

I was wondering how long it would take for whell to stock up on Reich-wing media talking points and regurgitate them here. Points supplied by DJT himself BTW. The same DJT who he claims to not be defending. It's almost like he believes us to be tRumpers gullible enough for fall for that crap. It's evident that he's either not read the indictment or has chosen to ignore what's in it.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

That's certainly the way it has been characterized by the media. However, there's a legal process described here where documents can be recovered by the National Archives described here: https://www.archives.gov/research/re...sequences.html. This is a civil process, not a criminal process.

Smith is pursuing criminal charges. "Obstruction" seems to be a pretty subjective construct. The Espionage Act charges are a different matter entirely. To obtain a conviction against Trump, the government will need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he willfully retained the material and failed to turn it over to the government.

We don't know all the info that the prosecution and the defense have in this case. For example, if Trump didn't pack the contents of every box - which seems likely - and didn't know where every single box was kept - which also seems likely - did he have "intent" to not return all the materials. As we've heard before, intent may be key.

Again, not a defense of Trump (are you paying attention here Chickie? Probably not). What's puzzling to me is that clearly neither Biden nor Pence are protected individuals under the Presidential Records Act. So, why the low key approach in those cases by Justice and the FBI?

It seems pretty obvious that you have not read the indictment. Read every word of it before arguing such nonsense.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

It seems pretty obvious that you have not read the indictment. Read every word of it before arguing such nonsense.

I did read it, you snarky little twerp. It prompted the questions I asked above.

For example, in the indictment, stated that "...Trump caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified information, to be transported to Mar a Lago....". The wording is important and can be an avenue for the defense to challenge, as noted in the post above. Unless it can be proven by the prosecution that Trump supervised the packing of the boxes right down to seeing and approving every item placed in those boxes, then - because this is a criminal case - there's reasonable doubt that Trump caused the movement of the classified materials.

Defense attorneys are skilled at finding ways to cast doubt. The defense doesn't need to provide innocence, but the prosecution must convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a law was broken. The point is that there is a lot of opportunity based on what's in the indictment to cast doubt.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

I did read it, you snarky little twerp. It prompted the questions I asked above.

For example, in the indictment, stated that "...Trump caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified information, to be transported to Mar a Lago....". The wording is important and can be an avenue for the defense to challenge, as noted in the post above. Unless it can be proven by the prosecution that Trump supervised the packing of the boxes right down to seeing and approving every item placed in those boxes, then - because this is a criminal case - there's reasonable doubt that Trump caused the movement of the classified materials.

Defense attorneys are skilled at finding ways to cast doubt. The defense doesn't need to provide innocence, but the prosecution must convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a law was broken. The point is that there is a lot of opportunity based on what's in the indictment to cast doubt.

If you read it, you would have known that the Presidential Records Act is unmentioned and irrelevant when it comes to retaining national defense information. The Defense Information records cited in the indictment are unquestionably government records and not personal records. The indictment also made it very clear that he knew he had these records and conspired to prevent their recovery.

I remember just a few short days before his indictment, you said that if he was indicted for illegally retaining defense information and obstructing their recovery, you'd be done with him. But you just can't help yourself. You're reflexively defending the indefensible yet again. Your reaction to this whole brouhaha is as shamelessly stupid as is it is predictable.

Here's what Trump's own people are saying:

“I don’t know what the specific documents the special council listed in the indictment, but if they’re anything like some of the things we presented to Trump in the Oval Office or sit room, it could cause enormous, incalculable damage to the US.”
- John Bolton

“Trump had classified docs when he shouldn’t have had them, and when given the opportunity to return them he chose not to do that .. That’s inconsistent with protecting America’s soldiers .. some of these were pretty serious, important docs.”
- Mike Pompeo

"This is not a case of the DOJ conducting a witch hunt...This would have gone nowhere had the president just returned the documents, but he jerked them around for a year and a half...There is no excuse for what he did here... It's a very detailed indictment, and it is very, very damning. This idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous...He's not a victim here. He was totally wrong...This idea that the president has complete authority to declare any document personal is facially ridiculous...These are official documents. It's inarguable the President's daily brief provided by the intelligence community is not Donald J. Trump's personal document."
- Bill Barr

As someone who held a Nuclear Top Secret (Q) clearance for 20 years, I know for certain that anyone else who did what Trump did would have been indicted a year ago. Instead of being persecuted as he claims, Trump is actually getting preferential treatment. Also, a former U.S. Air Force intelligence officer was sentenced Thursday to three years in federal prison for keeping classified documents at his home and other unauthorized locations.. This is exactly what Trump did, plus Trump also obstructed justice and made false statements.

[Chicks]

The fact that many a Conservative lawyer, all of whom have read the indictment, all of whom are well versed in the law, all of whom are infinitely sharper that Whell, are very, very concerned for Whell's Dear Leader says pretty much everything.

[RickeyM]

True to form whell selects points he wants to defend and ignores the rest. Especially the part about willfully refusing to give back what he took. Especially the part about trying to hide what he took. Especially lying about what he was trying to keep and what was given back.
Come on whell, get to the part about Hillary not being charged and Joe keeping classified material in his garage next to or underneath of (depending who's shoveling the shit.) his Corvette.
Whell, I realize you can't help yourself but damn fella, is this the best you can do?