Jane Fonda 50 years on.

[Ike Bana]

I ran across another examination of Fonda's apology for her N. Vietnam visit and her "behavior" that we all saw in photos and on film. The ususal vitrol and support for Jane was there, pretty much as it has been since she began apologising some time in 1980's...I think. Anyway, this article got me to thinking about this and here's what I come up with...,

...RJ Rummel estimated that American forces committed around 5,500 intentional democidal mass-killings between 1960 and 1972, from a range of between 4,000 and 10,000 killed in democide.

...Benjamin Valentino attributes possibly 110,000–310,000 “counter guerrilla mass killings” to U.S. and South Vietnamese forces during the war.

...Estimates for the number of North Vietnamese civilian deaths caused by American bombing of North Vietnam in Operation Rolling Thunder are 182,000.

...American bombing in Cambodia is estimated to have killed between 30,000 and 150,000 civilians and combatants.

...2 million gallons of Agent Orange, some of which was contaminated with Dioxin, was sprayed by the U.S. military over more than 10% of Southern Vietnam, as part of the U.S. herbicidal warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971. Vietnam’s government claimed that 400,000 people were killed or maimed as a result of after effects, and that 500,000 children were born with birth defects.

So...Hanoi Jane visited North Vietnam and we have the photos that upset so many patriotic Americans, such as the one taken of her sitting on the seat of a North Vietnames anti-aircraft gun. And she's anti-American, eh?

Although it appears that Putin's civilian body count in Ukraine is nowhere near our body count in North Vietnam, and that it's highly unlikely it will actually get anywhere close.

AND WE ARE CALLING PUTIN AND RUSSIAN TROOPS WAR CRIMINALS. Isn't that what Jane was saying back in 1972 in Hanoi?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

I ran across another examination of Fonda's apology for her N. Vietnam visit and her "behavior" that we all saw in photos and on film. The ususal vitrol and support for Jane was there, pretty much as it has been since she began apologising some time in 1980's...I think. Anyway, this article got me to thinking about this and here's what I come up with...,

So...Hanoi Jane visited North Vietnam and we have the photos that upset so many patriotic Americans, such as the one taken of her sitting on the seat of a North Vietnames anti-aircraft gun. And she's anti-American, eh?

Although it appears that Putin's civilian body count in Ukraine is nowhere near our body count in North Vietnam, and that it's highly unlikely it will actually get anywhere close.

AND WE ARE CALLING PUTIN AND RUSSIAN TROOPS WAR CRIMINALS. Isn't that what Jane was saying back in 1972 in Hanoi?

Even one of most heroic and influential officers (LTC John Paul Vann) in Vietnam realized it was all a lie. If you haven't read it already, read "A Bright Shining Lie" as well as the first several chapters of "Our Man: Richard Holbrooke and the End of the American Century."

[Oerets]

Not Jane's shining moment in history to say the least.
Nor the United States either for that matter.


Like my Father always was fond of saying, two wrongs don't make a right!

If we as a species are to survive and thrive then need to learn from or mistakes. Not keep repeating them.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Even one of most heroic and influential officers (LTC John Paul Vann) in Vietnam realized it was all a lie. If you haven't read it already, read "A Bright Shining Lie" as well as the first several chapters of "Our Man: Richard Holbrooke and the End of the American Century."

Reckon if Vann's helicopter hadn't crashed on June 9, 1972, if something might have been different in the last three years of the war. He was only a light colonel, so...smart, courageous and honest probably wouldn't have been enough in the US military of that time...or any time.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Oerets

Not Jane's shining moment in history to say the least.
Nor the United States either for that matter.


Like my Father always was fond of saying, two wrongs don't make a right!

If we as a species are to survive and thrive then need to learn from or mistakes. Not keep repeating them.

Jane Fonda did nothing wrong. Just like any brave Russian celebrity who would travel to Ukraine and speak out against the democide of Putin in front of the cameras would be doing nothing wrong today. Too bad there aren't any such Russians, and too bad Americans are still up Fonda's ass for her patriotism.

Get off Jane Fonda's ass. If Jane can't tolerate the heat from Americans and needs to continue to repeatedly apologize about her "mistake", that's up to her, but Jane Fonda did nothing wrong. Want to be pissed off at somebody? Stick with the "Jews will not replace us" nazis of Charlottesville and a Republican Party that supports them.

[Oerets]

My take was that Jane was played by the Vietnamese and having a Father and Uncle "In Country" a few years prior. Looking at the very good possibility of going there myself with the number of 3 as a draw in my senior year.

Just the optics of her on the antiaircraft gun pointing to the sky......

I remember well the way I felt about the war. The way my Father felt of the waste of our boys.
The stupidity in the way it was being waged.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Oerets

My take was that Jane was played by the Vietnamese and having a Father and Uncle "In Country" a few years prior. Looking at the very good possibility of going there myself with the number of 3 as a draw in my senior year.

Just the optics of her on the antiaircraft gun pointing to the sky......

I remember well the way I felt about the war. The way my Father felt of the waste of our boys.
The stupidity in the way it was being waged.

Ike Bana USMC 1969-1975 honorably discharged E-5 Sgt. The name has been changed to protect my sorry ass.

The first excerpts of the Pentagon Papers were published a month before Fonda's trip to North Vietnam. There should have never been any negativity directed at Fonda when we knew a month early that the whole fucking thing was a lie. And then, of course there's the Gulf of Tonkin Incident lie, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, political justification for the whole fucking thing. It was too late for me, I was already two years into my service, way too late to do anything about that goddamn mistake.

[Oerets]

The protesting she did was probably more effective galvanizing the wrong audience. The very ones in favor of carrying on the bloodshed.

Also used effectively as propaganda against the USA. Thus having the opposite effect of escalating the USA's response to the reporting.


Yet we are a free country and she did what she did.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Ike Bana USMC 1969-1975 honorably discharged E-5 Sgt. The name has been changed to protect my sorry ass.

The first excerpts of the Pentagon Papers were published a month before Fonda's trip to North Vietnam. There should have never been any negativity directed at Fonda when we knew a month early that the whole fucking thing was a lie. And then, of course there's the Gulf of Tonkin Incident lie, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, political justification for the whole fucking thing. It was too late for me, I was already two years into my service, way too late to do anything about that goddamn mistake.

I'm with you, sarge. Jane had nothing to apologize for. Missed the big murderous SNAFU by a few years.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Oerets

The protesting she did was probably more effective galvanizing the wrong audience. The very ones in favor of carrying on the bloodshed.

Also used effectively as propaganda against the USA. Thus having the opposite effect of escalating the USA's response to the reporting.


Yet we are a free country and she did what she did.

Which confirms how much of the audience was and still is...all fucking wrong. And it includes a shithouse full of alleged progressives, who just don't seem to be able to take the proper route, typically because it might strike home and be a bit uncomfortable. Plenty of us "progressives" still want to see those 58,000 names on the wall as standing for something, or even anything more than giving one's life for the guy next to you in the hole you scratched out of the dirt. Trying to keep each other alive was the only noble act. They all died because of the politicians and the generals, not for any flag, or anybody's freedom.

I lucked out...I was in the air wing and never got close to a deployment. And when somebody, out of the goodness of their heart says "thanks for your service" to me...I have to fight off the urge to puke. It's why I haven't been able to go to the wall...it just infuriates me all over again.

I'm never gonna shut up about guns, or reproductive rights, or marriage rights, or the shit way we teach world and US history to American children, or why we spend billions of dollars on 11 active aircraft carrier strike groups. We sure don't want to upset ourselves with all the history. On the vile alt-right website that I've lingered on for the past three years, my comments did nothing but incite those of such an audience. Maybe that means I should just have STFU, eh? All I had to do to keep from getting booted off was to be quiet. IDTS.