Israel has invaded Gaza...

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Here's a thoughtful article on the topic. I suppose the author is also in bed with Hamas.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middl...ate-True-video

I didn't realize that not fully buying into Bibi's schtick qualified somebody as a terrorist. If it does, that renders the majority of the world terrorists.

Bullshit. My only point was your "Hamas does not seek a Caliphate" statement. It has nothing to do with buying into a fucking thing Netanyahu says. Man up Finn. Were you wrong or not? It's a yes or no question. It's a have some integrity or not question.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

What's remarkable is how it is perfectly OK to criticize our own foreign/defense policy, as well as that of all of our allies (e.g., Germany, France, Turkey...), but if one dares to criticize the policies/tactics of Israel's ruling Likud coalition, you're a terrorist. If you're an Israeli Prime Minister seeking peace with the Palestinians against the wishes of the Israeli Right, it gets you assassinated.

You have the integrity of a carrot. The post I made was specific to your comment. Everything else you've posted about it since is a tangential dodge. Your statement insisting that Hamas does not seek a Caliphate has been proven wrong. It's the only point of my post...and the only point you refuse to address. And I'm the fucking idiot.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by nailer

Honorable gentlemen duel.

Are you offering to be Bob's or Bob's second? Bob would prefer sabers.

Sabers? Did you go to Heidelberg University?

[nailer]

I just downloaded a copy of the Hamas Charter (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) and searched for caliphate (one hit) and Israel (four hits). Pertinent sentences follow:

"They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources."

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." The other three Israel hits do not mention its right to exist.


It also has this to say about other Islamic movements:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement views other Islamic movements with respect and appreciation. If it were at variance with them on one point or opinion, it is in agreement with them on other points and understandings. It considers these movements, if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah, that they fall into the category of those who are trying hard since they act within the Islamic circle. Each active person has his share."

[nailer]

Originally Posted by bobabode

Sabers? Did you go to Heidelberg University?

No scars on this handsome kisser.

[bobabode]

Here's some good news. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z1

Looks like Hamas is declaring victory. That's certainly a stretch of wishful thinking. I don't see any daylight between the Obama administration and Israel.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

You have the integrity of a carrot. The post I made was specific to your comment. Everything else you've posted about it since is a tangential dodge. Your statement insisting that Hamas does not seek a Caliphate has been proven wrong. It's the only point of my post...and the only point you refuse to address. And I'm the fucking idiot.

I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that forming a caliphate isn't Hamas' raison d'être as it is for ISIS. Like any self-respecting Sunni terrorist organization, Hamas supports the notion of a caliphate but that isn't its primary objective. At the moment, its primary objective is to maintain relevance, something Fatah damned near succeeded in quashing.

Then, Bibi stepped in and deliberately screwed the pooch because a united Palestine under Fatah would have represented a viable negotiating partner for a 2-state solution (something he doesn't want as it threatens his ambitions in Judea and Samaria).

I suppose this is as good a time as any to show a few select excerpts from the Likud Party charter.

a. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.

b. Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem.

c. The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

d. The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

Where does this leave the 4 million Palestinians living in these communities?

[nailer]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that forming a caliphate isn't Hamas' raison d'être as it is for ISIS. Like any self-respecting Sunni terrorist organization, Hamas supports the notion of a caliphate but that isn't its primary objective. At the moment, its primary objective is to maintain relevance, something Fatah damned near succeeded in quashing.

Hamas' primary goal is the destruction of Israel. Says so right at the beginning of their charter.

Originally Posted by finnbow

Then, Bibi stepped it and deliberately screwed the pooch because a united Palestine under Fatah would have represented a viable negotiating partner for a 2-state solution (something he doesn't want as it threatens his ambitions in Judea and Samaria).

How can you know this?

BTW, based on your unsourced excerpts Bibi is implementing his party's policies.

Originally Posted by finnbow

I suppose this is as good a time as any to show a few select excerpts from the Likud Party charter.

a. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.

b. Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem.

c. The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

d. The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

a, b, and c have pretty much been achieved, and I'm fairly certain that most Israelis are fine with this.

Originally Posted by finnbow

Where does this leave the 4 million Palestinians living in these communities?

Same as it ever was, living under someone else's rule.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that forming a caliphate isn't Hamas' raison d'être as it is for ISIS. Like any self-respecting Sunni terrorist organization, Hamas supports the notion of a caliphate but that isn't its primary objective. At the moment, its primary objective is to maintain relevance, something Fatah damned near succeeded in quashing.

Thank you. We continue to disagree however. If you read article 33 and pay attention to the comments of the two Hamas officials...it's more than clear to me that killing or displacing every Jew in Israel is only a beginning step toward their goal, the same goal as ISIS and Al-Qaeda...a worldwide Islamic Caliphate where the primary purpose is to rid the world of infidels. Who would be anybody who isn't a Muslim. Which makes them terrorists in the same class as their terrorist brethren as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by finnbow

Then, Bibi stepped it and deliberately screwed the pooch because a united Palestine under Fatah would have represented a viable negotiating partner for a 2-state solution (something he doesn't want as it threatens his ambitions in Judea and Samaria).

I suppose this is as good a time as any to show a few select excerpts from the Likud Party charter.

a. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.

b. Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem.

c. The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

d. The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

Where does this leave the 4 million Palestinians living in these communities?

Netanyahu has already stated that he can work toward a 2 state solution. That said...I have very little problem with the other points stated above. I have no problem with the Jordan river being the eastern boundary of the state of Israel. I support Israel's refusal to create sectors in Jerusalem. Or any of the rest of it. Israel is already and has already done considerably more for the Muslim population of the West Bank than the Jordanians and Palestinians did for there own people, or for the Jews when they controlled the West Bank. Not only has Israel allowed Muslims to visit their holy sites in Jerusalem and other locations in the West Bank, but actually provided for the Temple Mount to remain under the control of Muslims and to manage the site as a Waqf. As opposed to the situation on the West Bank between 1948 and 1967 when Jews were not being allowed to access to the Western Wall or any of their other holy sites, and when every Jewish cemetery in the West Bank was desecrated by the Muslim population.

So let's just keep all the history in mind when we're thinking about the situation. Israeli Jews need to be very careful about what they might relinquish in land, because they know that whatever dirt might become the Palestinian part of the 2 state solution, dirt that may contain Jewish holy sites, will be dirt they will never have access to again.

Where does it leave 4 million Palestinians you ask. It leaves them where any solution leaves them...at the mercy of whoever has control over them. Because anybody who thinks the average Palestinian's life will improve when they live in a Palestinian state controlled by Palestinian leadership is kidding themselves.

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by bobabode

Here's some good news. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z1

Looks like Hamas is declaring victory. That's certainly a stretch of wishful thinking. I don't see any daylight between the Obama administration and Israel.

I see loopholes already.

"Other demands by the Palestinians — building a seaport and an airport, opening all the border crossings and improving the movement of goods and people — are set to be discussed later in Cairo. Israel also will press its demand that Gaza be demilitarized."