Email from a Republican childhood friend...

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Can you tell me the last war that was actively fought to protect our country?

I don't confuse Nationalism with Patriotism nor do I believe unfettered Patriotism is a positive.

That said, I get your point and acknowledge it. I've just witnessed too many guys who drove a truck through a secure area that happened to have sand act as if they are Lawrence of Arabia and I should pay homage.

Unlikely.

You'll note that I addressed the sincere motives of the soldiers, not the underlying motives for the war, for example, the motives of someone like Pat Tillman who bought Bush's lies, left a lucrative football career and went off to war. Tillman deserves our gratitude. Bush deserves a trip to the Hague.

John

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You'll note that I addressed the sincere motives of the soldiers, not the underlying motives for the war, for example, the motives of someone like Pat Tillman who bought Bush's lies, left a lucrative football career and went off to war. Tillman deserves our gratitude. Bush deserves a trip to the Hague.

John

I am not, in the slightest, trying to be an ass:

Tillman had a degree from Arizona State. He should have been smarter.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You'll note that I addressed the sincere motives of the soldiers, not the underlying motives for the war, for example, the motives of someone like Pat Tillman who bought Bush's lies, left a lucrative football career and went off to war. Tillman deserves our gratitude. Bush deserves a trip to the Hague.

John

I can agree with that, although I suspect Tillman was a glory seeker.

Wasn't he killed in a friendly fire incident?

Dave

[Pio1980]

AFAIK, Tillman was not a glory hound, rather motivated by a sense of duty if not noblis oblige' to "give back" something to a country for which he had gratitude for his privilege.
Yes, a friendly fire tragedy that was attempted to be concealed as valor under fire.

[icenine]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

You've noticed that too?

I'm not saying the military retirees don't deserve their bennies, just that I find it interesting that so many of them think no one else does.

This country is full of people who feel entitled to their nice benefits, but attack others who do the same. "I deserve it and more, but you deserve nothing."

Elitism at its worst.

Dave

Issa is from Vista, right next to Camp Pendleton. His district is just east of the city I live in.

[icenine]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Respectfully, I don't believe everyone retired from the military to be "my own."

Screw those who believe I owe them anything for what they volunteered for.

There's a lot of elitism from many who deserve a good bitch slap.

some of us are not elitists Zeke.

I think he meant everybody who needs help when he said take care of "my own"

[icenine]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I am not, in the slightest, trying to be an ass:

Tillman had a degree from Arizona State. He should have been smarter.

It is wrong of you to say anything like that. He sincerely left behind a lucrative career to fight what he thought was a just war.


It takes courage to walk the walk like that...he volunteered for actual combat.

Whether you disagree with the war on terrorism or not I really get pissed off when people talk about Tillman like that.

I mean have you done anything like that in your life? I cannot say I have.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by icenine

It is wrong of you to say anything like that. He sincerely left behind a lucrative career to fight what he thought was a just war.

It takes courage to walk the walk like that...he volunteered for actual combat.

Whether you disagree with the war on terrorism or not I really get pissed off when people talk about Tillman like that.

I mean have you done anything like that in your life? I cannot say I have.

1. I am not mad.
2. I am approaching this intellectually.
3. I have no issues with being directly questioned.

You're argument appears to be that I or anyone should not question the intelligence of Tillman choosing an exceedingly dangerous existence versus cash.

Fine. But this carries its own burden. If he didn't desire to get killed or was seeking a meaningful existence related to his acts, he chose poorly and should have been smarter. (Because he got neither.) His call, his shortsighted error as courage isn't in falling prey to bald Nationalism, it's in saying "this is stupid" in the face of it to anyone who might listen.

You ask what I have done? While that is a false equivalency I will say that I have done enough to know what is stupid and what is not while being unconcerned if this "pisses people off."

If folks desire to debate the character of Tillman, apart from the rhetoric of American Exceptionalism, you'd have to ask his teammates and the folks who -- rumors continue to persist -- may have fragged him. Regardless of what anyone says, it is unlikely that an Army Ranger accidentally fired three well grouped bullets, at short range, from a SAW, in broad daylight, into his forehead.

That's like saying a Formula One driver had difficulty negotiating some cones in a parking lot behind the wheel of a Honda Civic.

[donquixote99]

You're applying rational standards.

Ever hear the saying 'A rational army would desert?'

I think that's true. I think the fact that actual armies fight and fight is down to instinct. People, especially young males, are willing to die for the tribe--or at least do not weigh the danger as very important. Irrational, from the individual point-of-view, but perhaps a positive thing for the survival of the group, in prehistoric times.

[Zeke]

That was nicely put.