Getting Rid of Holder

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Though born of experience, I think you overstate your strong belief when you characterize it as certainty. In a court of law it would be rightly regarded as conjecture. You can't actually be certain unless you were privy to information which unequivocally established that Holder knew in advance and approved of the contents of the letter.

Then too, there's the carefully parsed words of the letter which leave open the possibility that, though the guns did indeed get into the hands of the cartels, it wasn't part of the plan. Rather it may have been a first class screw up on the part of ATF field agents.

John

Could well be. OTOH, straw purchases of several thousand such weapons would require local discretionary spending authority in the millions. This is highly doubtful.

It took Holder 10 months to recant his deputy's assertion. This sounds a bit fishy to me. I do know that in the three agencies I worked in (DoD, Labor and Energy), nothing gets up to that level of signature without weeks or months of staff work. It just doesn't happen otherwise.

[Boreas]

Oh, it's a mess to be sure and, as always, the coverup is more damaging than what was to be covered up. These guys really ought to know by now.

I really do think the intention was to conduct a raid at the last minute, just before the weapons left for Mexico. The hope was to net some of the medium sized fish at that time and use them to get to the bigger fish in Mexico. Nobody in their right mind would think they could do a damn thing about those weapons once they were in Mexico.

By the way, sorry to be such a nit picker earlier.

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Oh, it's a mess to be sure and, as always, the coverup is more damaging than what was to be covered up. These guys really ought to know by now.

I really do think the intention was to conduct a raid at the last minute, just before the weapons left for Mexico. The hope was to net some of the medium sized fish at that time and use them to get to the bigger fish in Mexico. Nobody in their right mind would think they could do a damn thing about those weapons once they were in Mexico.

By the way, sorry to be such a nit picker earlier.

John

No issues. Having just retired with 38 years in Federal service, 25 in three different agency headquarters, I'm unfortunately all too aware of the slimy CYA bullchit that occurs at virtually all of these agencies. Honesty and forthrightness are rare commodities in the upper echelons of most Federal agencies.

Maybe it's admirable that the administration doesn't want to hang its subordinates in Arizona out to dry (unlike the military who prosecutes only at the lowest levels). However, somebody somewhere is accountable.

[icenine]

So I take it Holder never denied Fast and Furious but his deputy did. How come they are not trying to nail the deputy's ass to the wall then? And it really does not matter which weapon killed the agent does it? So Issa is basically trying to hang Holder on a gun interdiction program that went awry. But there is no hiding the fact that it did indeed go awry. Once again where is the cover up? I think some people are upset that this is not going to sink Obama next fall. The DOJ screwed up....and if you do not like it do not vote for Obama next fall.
If Issa had the the goods, then there would be a Special Prosecutor? Even that milk toast congressman ( I cannot remember his name) during the Clinton years got Kenneth Starr to investigate that big waste of time Whitewater.
Maybe D-Ray can chime in but Narcotics officers often purchase drugs and do not arrest the sellers just so they can monitor the strength of the drug and perhaps find out who the real controllers of the drug network are. Sort of breaking the law to catch the bad guys eventually? Is this not the same thing but the good intentions led to hell? One has to remember that their intentions were most likely honorable, these men in the ATF. Just the means maybe were way off. That is how I look at it anyway. And 2000 weapons going south of the border courtesy of the Bush and Obama Administrations? Well what is that number in comparison to all the weapons that flow down there year in and year out, especially since the repeal of the Assault Weapons Ban?
At worst I think Holder may have known about the program but not admitted he did. If Nixon had just known about Watergate but had pleaded ignorance (i.e lied about his knowledge of it) he may have stayed in office. He crossed the line and suggested paying off the burglars...that was the smoking gun and obstruction of justice. So if Holder recanted his deputies denial of knowledge 10 months after is letter...still not a cover up just an admission that they knew about the Fast and Furious program. I am not a lawyer but I think the actual drug interdiction program itself would have to be deemed illegal...something I think would be hard to do. Breaking into Watergate was illegal.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by finnbow

It really doesn't matter that much IMHO. It opened the door to the fact that 2,000 weapons walked. The media and the GOP have to put a face on the incident to make it compelling.

And during the hearings they managed to repeat the agent's name 64 times.

[HatchetJack]

Anyone else notice the liberal "heroes" walking out on Holder and the vote.
What kind of example are they setting? Thats embarrassing to me as an
American and shows their true colors. What little chance they had at
getting my vote in November is out the window.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Anyone else notice the liberal "heroes" walking out on Holder and the vote.
What kind of example are they setting? Thats embarrassing to me as an
American and shows their true colors. What little chance they had at
getting my vote in November is out the window.

Like you were gonna vote for da black man.

[HatchetJack]

The way they marched out of there hand in hand like they were victims
of some kind of abuse rather than a botched cover up. Hell no

[d-ray657]

This it the first time a sitting cabinet official has been held in contempt. Issa has been using his position to engage in political scalp-taking ever since there was a Republican majority in the House. By taking an historically unprecedented stab at the AG on the basis of a seriously flawed investigation, Issa and Boehner have engaged in substantial overreaching. If the GOP takes any action to enforce this farce, it will result in an independent evaluation of the assertion of the privilege. This sets them up for another serious embarrassment. I'm looking forward to seeing the powder burns when this blows up in their faces.

Regards,

D-Ray

[bobabode]

Read the Fortune Magazine article Jack. This whole thing has been a sham
from start to finish. McCarthyism by amateurs is the whole story.