B.P. = Bit of Perspective?

[Combwork]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but B.P. bashing seems to have become the new contact sport. It's maybe worth thinking of the following. On July 16th 1998, 167 people died when the offshore rig Piper Alpha, wholly owned by Occidental Petroleum (Los Angeles) exploded off the Scottish coast. The heat was so intense one of the rescue boats caught fire. The subsequent inquiry found Occidental Petroleum partly liable on the grounds of inadequate safety and maintenance procedures and guess what? No prosecutions followed.

U.S. companies were directly involved with Bhopal, Exxon Valdez and the Torry Canyon and in all cases, the first thing they did was run to their lawyers and start building walls. "It wasn't our fault, a big boy did it and ran away".

It's arguable who was actually responsible for what happened on Deepwater Horizon; The owners? The operators? The designers? The maintenance crew??? I guess that's yet to be decided on but it's worth noting that the first thing B.P. did was try to fix the problem. OK, their P.R. people are a joke, but it was their designers and engineers who tried again and again to solve the problem. Now it looks as if they might have succeeded so how about some applause instead of more ball kicking.

"Who's ass to kick". Would that be his by any chance?

[Charles]

People forget that BP stock is owned by millions of people. If all of this hammering of BP causes them to take bankruptcy, not only will it cause a lot of people to lose their retirement funds, but they won't be able to pay for the cleanup.

The law of unintended consequences.

Chas

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Charles

People forget that BP stock is owned by millions of people. If all of this hammering of BP causes them to take bankruptcy, not only will it cause a lot of people to lose their retirement funds, but they won't be able to pay for the cleanup.

The law of unintended consequences.

Chas

So, what's your solution?

John

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Boreas

So, what's your solution?

John

Drop the blame blame and proceed in a responsible manner.

Of course, perception once again trumps reality, and this has become a media driven event.

I have no idea what is being done, or not. But I do assume that folks are doing the best they can, all things considered.

A little less rhetoric is in order, IMHO.

Chas

[merrylander]

The sad part is that there is plenty of money to be made in the oil business, but one or two individuals seeking corporate fame or attaboys made shortcuts to save $$$ and a whole hell of a lot of innocent folk suffer.

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by merrylander

The sad part is that there is plenty of money to be made in the oil business, but one or two individuals seeking corporate fame or attaboys made shortcuts to save $$$ and a whole hell of a lot of innocent folk suffer.

True. If some attaboy is proven to have made shortcuts to line his pockets, he'll be praying to be put inside before he's hung up by the balls.

[Boreas]

I have a hard time viewing the original post as little more than jingoistic America bashing. It would seem that Combwork is equating anti-BP sentiment with anti-British sentiment. I think that conclusion is entirely unjustified.

As a result, I'll try very hard not to draw similar conclusions about his litany of catastrophes perpetrated by US companies. Rather, I'll limit myself to some of the specifics in his post.

Let me begin by saying that I agree that US companies have indeed acted in horrifyingly irresponsible ways in the past. That they did doesn't somehow disqualify us as US citizens from criticizing non-US corporations when they commit similar outrages.

Combwork's list of offenses includes the Liberian tanker, the Torrey Canyon. The Torrey Canyon ran aground off the Cornish coast and broke up. The disaster was largely the result of human error. The cleanup, which was largely unsuccessful, was conducted by the Royal Navy.

He is correct, by the way, that the Torrey Canyon was owned by a Union Oil subsidiary. Guess who it was leased to though.

That's right! BP!

Now, let's move on to the Exxon Valdez. Again, a case of human error on the part of the tanker crew and again a tanker running aground and leaking. There was also the matter of a broken radar system that Exxon knew about and failed to repair.

That being said, the real problems came from the botched cleanup effort. Guess who was in charge of that!

Aw, you peeked!

Now, the matter of who's to blame for the current catastrophe. True, the investigation is yet to come but the press reporting all seems to point to BP ordering that the drilling be sped up and that drill mud be replaced with sea water. The operation was behind schedule and over budget and BP wanted to cut its losses. The operators objected to this but, since BP was paying the bills, their decision carried the day.

As to BP trying to "fix the problem", I'd have to say that their idea of that was to conceal the magnitude of the problem by barring "outsiders" and media from the area, requiring cleanup workers to sign a contract forbidding them from talking to the media and using dispersants (despite being told not to by the EPA) to make it impossible to quantify the amount of leakage (and therefore their liability). And you don't think the first thing they did was run to their lawyers?

Finally, Combwork claims that it appears BP is succeeding in stopping the leak. All one need do is look at the live video feed to see just how absurd that notion is.

Anyone want me to go through the list of other disasters that BP has been responsible for?

John

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I have a hard time viewing the original post as little more than jingoistic America bashing. It would seem that Combwork is equating anti-BP sentiment with anti-British sentiment. I think that conclusion is entirely unjustified.

As a result, I'll try very hard not to draw similar conclusions about his litany of catastrophes perpetrated by US companies. Rather, I'll limit myself to some of the specifics in his post.

Let me begin by saying that I agree that US companies have indeed acted in horrifyingly irresponsible ways in the past. That they did doesn't somehow disqualify us as US citizens from criticizing non-US corporations when they commit similar outrages.

Combwork's list of offenses includes the Liberian tanker, the Torrey Canyon. The Torrey Canyon ran aground off the Cornish coast and broke up. The disaster was largely the result of human error. The cleanup, which was largely unsuccessful, was conducted by the Royal Navy.

He is correct, by the way, that the Torrey Canyon was owned by a Union Oil subsidiary. Guess who it was leased to though.

That's right! BP!

Now, let's move on to the Exxon Valdez. Again, a case of human error on the part of the tanker crew and again a tanker running aground and leaking. There was also the matter of a broken radar system that Exxon knew about and failed to repair.

That being said, the real problems came from the botched cleanup effort. Guess who was in charge of that!

Aw, you peeked!

Now, the matter of who's to blame for the current catastrophe. True, the investigation is yet to come but the press reporting all seems to point to BP ordering that the drilling be sped up and that drill mud be replaced with sea water. The operation was behind schedule and over budget and BP wanted to cut its losses. The operators objected to this but, since BP was paying the bills, their decision carried the day.

As to BP trying to "fix the problem", I'd have to say that their idea of that was to conceal the magnitude of the problem by barring "outsiders" and media from the area, requiring cleanup workers to sign a contract forbidding them from talking to the media and using dispersants (despite being told not to by the EPA) to make it impossible to quantify the amount of leakage (and therefore their liability). And you don't think the first thing they did was run to their lawyers?

Finally, Combwork claims that it appears BP is succeeding in stopping the leak. All one need do is look at the live video feed to see just how absurd that notion is.

Anyone want me to go through the list of other disasters that BP has been responsible for?

John

You, Sir, are a machine. Awesome post.

Dave

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I have a hard time viewing the original post as little more than jingoistic America bashing. It would seem that Combwork is equating anti-BP sentiment with anti-British sentiment. I think that conclusion is entirely unjustified.

As a result, I'll try very hard not to draw similar conclusions about his litany of catastrophes perpetrated by US companies. Rather, I'll limit myself to some of the specifics in his post.

Let me begin by saying that I agree that US companies have indeed acted in horrifyingly irresponsible ways in the past. That they did doesn't somehow disqualify us as US citizens from criticizing non-US corporations when they commit similar outrages.

Combwork's list of offenses includes the Liberian tanker, the Torrey Canyon. The Torrey Canyon ran aground off the Cornish coast and broke up. The disaster was largely the result of human error. The cleanup, which was largely unsuccessful, was conducted by the Royal Navy.

He is correct, by the way, that the Torrey Canyon was owned by a Union Oil subsidiary. Guess who it was leased to though.

That's right! BP!

Now, let's move on to the Exxon Valdez. Again, a case of human error on the part of the tanker crew and again a tanker running aground and leaking. There was also the matter of a broken radar system that Exxon knew about and failed to repair.

That being said, the real problems came from the botched cleanup effort. Guess who was in charge of that!

Aw, you peeked!

Now, the matter of who's to blame for the current catastrophe. True, the investigation is yet to come but the press reporting all seems to point to BP ordering that the drilling be sped up and that drill mud be replaced with sea water. The operation was behind schedule and over budget and BP wanted to cut its losses. The operators objected to this but, since BP was paying the bills, their decision carried the day.

As to BP trying to "fix the problem", I'd have to say that their idea of that was to conceal the magnitude of the problem by barring "outsiders" and media from the area, requiring cleanup workers to sign a contract forbidding them from talking to the media and using dispersants (despite being told not to by the EPA) to make it impossible to quantify the amount of leakage (and therefore their liability). And you don't think the first thing they did was run to their lawyers?

Finally, Combwork claims that it appears BP is succeeding in stopping the leak. All one need do is look at the live video feed to see just how absurd that notion is.

Anyone want me to go through the list of other disasters that BP has been responsible for?

John

Jingoistic American Bashing? I don't think so. It's just that at least on a corporate level, you guys are seen to run to the lawyers before the clean-up crew. I still stand by what I said; the blame game started before the public realised how serious it was. In a country where litigation is the first call, can you blame B.P. for putting the shutters up?

Finally, Combwork claims that it appears BP is succeeding in stopping the leak. All one need do is look at the live video feed to see just how absurd that notion is.


What I wrote was "seems as if they might have succeeded", not that they had succeeded. Whatever you think about B.P. it's not all smoke and mirrors. B.P are not daft, they're a big corporation. They know they can't hide 'the truth' forever and again as far as I know, whatever happened comes under American jurisdiction and is subject to American law. B.P are a prime target with enough assets to make them worth going for.

Let me begin by saying that I agree that US companies have indeed acted in horrifyingly irresponsible ways in the past. That they did doesn't somehow disqualify us as US citizens from criticizing non-US corporations when they commit similar outrages.

Agreed, but in this case the blame game started way too quickly. When the Exxon Valdez ran aground and broke up it was the worst oil spillage at sea ever. No-one knew how to tackle it but well before the blame game got underway the Royal Navy tried to deal with it. Did Exxon ever admit that they with their undertrained crew and faulty radar (which they knew about beforehand) were to blame?


It would seem that Combwork is equating anti-BP sentiment with anti-British sentiment. I think that conclusion is entirely unjustified.

I don't think the U.S. is inherently anti-British but again, the speed with which B.P. was assumed by the U.S. to be entirely to blame just doesn't add up. Going back to their 'unsuccessful' attempt to repair the damage, did any U.S. company try anything or did they sit back and wait? If B.P. had solved the problem, great but if they couldn't? It would just be something else to blame them for in any subsequent litigation.

B.P. are damned if they do and damned if they don't. What to the best of my knowledge has yet to be established is what actually happened. Was it a mistake by the crew, cost cutting by the operators, bad design or just bad luck? One thing there's speculation about here is the possibility that they drilled into a large pocket of highly compressed gas; something they could not know about until they hit it. Finally a genuine question. Although B.P. owned the rig, were they directly responsible for operating it or was this done by sub-contractors?

This is not blame shifting; somewhere down the line there's a sign saying "the buck stops here" but we all know it doesn't. There are always advisers to blame; a willing (or unwilling) fall guy to take a hit.

I've just read this through and it all seems a bit vague, but no more than your post Boreas 31037. You admit there have been screw-ups by U.S. companies on the same scale as the Deepwater Horizon, my point is that U.S. corporations are seen as being better at avoiding responsibility than anyone else I can think of. Your legal system encourages this; lock everything in litigation for long enough in the hope that it will all go away.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Combwork

<snip>I've just read this through and it all seems a bit vague, but no more than your post Boreas 31037. You admit there have been screw-ups by U.S. companies on the same scale as the Deepwater Horizon, my point is that U.S. corporations are seen as being better at avoiding responsibility than anyone else I can think of. Your legal system encourages this; lock everything in litigation for long enough in the hope that it will all go away.

Case in point Mine Safety.