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Originally Posted by Boreas
So, you got nothing, right?  |
No, just my own eyes and thoughts
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Originally Posted by Boreas
The comment was in regard to your contention that our founders would be assailing science.
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Not science, obviously not. The blind belief in science and government.
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Originally Posted by Boreas
Okay, pick and choose your own comments where the founders advocated for a declaration that we are a Christian nation. More to the point, pick and choose the Government document which so states.
This really only has cultural significance, not governmental. In "a Christian nation" it would have been mandated, not suggested.
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A clarifying question would be, what constitutes a nation? The founders would not have agreed it was the government, far from it. Their actions show their intent.
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Originally Posted by Boreas
Okay, tell me why it means anything.
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I'm at a loss here. Anyone?
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Originally Posted by Boreas
You haven't heard me mention him. I know what happened.
John
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Sorry, answering two posters in one
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Originally Posted by Boreas
So, he was an advocate ofr a Christian nation even though he thought it was bunk, even though useful bunk?
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Useful enough to advocate teaching the Bible in schools, yes.
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Originally Posted by Boreas
"Fall away"? "Fallen"? If you want to see just how far Jefferson "strayed" read his "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth".
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That would be the definition of fallen, indeed.
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Originally Posted by Boreas
If Jefferson invented negative campaigning it was by being the victim of it. Adams, that devout Christian, threw the kitchen sink at Jefferson, right down to the (accurate) rumors about Sally Hemmings.
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Jefferson first, hired a slanderer.
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Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie
I can tell you what I think, not that any of you asked. I am a Catholic and if pressed I would call myself a Christian, though I distain what that word has come to represent in our country. I think, like Franklin, the Bible is filled with unfathomable wisdom, though it is more often over looked in favor of quotes that can be used to stand in judgment of others.
I go to church every week. Okay, most weeks. I participate in communion and have received all appropriate sacraments. I also believe the Bible was written by men and the commonly held belief in the nature of "God" is absurd. For many years I considered leaving the church. Damn near became a Unitarian, like many of our Founding Fathers. Ultimately I found that many in the clergy believed things very much in line with what I believed. I figure if they can call themselves Catholic so can I.
Paine's writings helped me come to terms with my beliefs. I think where I am now is probably very close to where many of our Founding Fathers were. People want it to be black and white. They were Christian or they were not. I don't think it's that simple. But I do think it's quite clear that they went out of their way to avoid the implication that any religion should be included in political debate.
I also believe, as was the intent of this thread, that the people organizing the "Tea Parties" know they are misleading the citizens of this country. I find that very wrong.
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I understand what you mean about personal belief. I liken it to the Statler Brothers, who were thrown out of the Baptist church for playing secular music. Anyone who writes a song like 'Whose birthday is Christmas' is very likely a born again Christian. Still, tossed out, freedom of religion and all that.
I can't get my mind around saying things like the Nicene Creed (that's in Catholic churches too right?) and then saying that the commonly held belief in the nature of "God" is absurd, not to be difficult Ed, perhaps I'm not understanding it.
"Many of our Founding Fathers" is a bit of a stretch, ain't it?
Paine was ostracized from these other folks who were "probably very close" to Paine's thoughts. They let him rot basically.
Obama certainly knew, or as Senator and Presidential nominee should have known, that we were going to leave troops in Iraq indefinately and Gitmo was neccessary. I find that very wrong.
Pete