Dreadful Terrorist Attack In Peshawar, Pakistan
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z1

Taliban targets children and teachers at school.
141 dead, mostly kids. :(

The army fostered these people. The Pakistani army has always been sympathetic to terrorists. Now the terrorists are out of their
control.

Pakistani army probably created (or at least funded and armed) their home grown version of Taliban to fight against the western forces in Afghanistan. Now that very same force is coming home to haunt them.

This is the second high profile attack in Peshawar which is a garrison city. The earlier one was an attack on an air base in the same area.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-19278302

So where is the outcry by devout muslims against this atrocity?

In my area.... Muslims are fearful of speaking up.... They have a spokesperson, a leader in their community, that is working with the larger community to bridge fears and misconceptions. This effort began after a terrorist was arrested locally and convicted. Like most terrorists.... His Muslim faith was just used as a tool for his terrorist agenda.

Sounds familiar.

Dave

Of course we can understand the power of fear. As I mentioned in another post just this morning...Jews walked quietly onto the cattle cars because they were more afraid of what would happen right then if they did not comply than what they suspected would happen when they reached their destination.

That said...how much is it going to take for people to rise up and not only express their disgust for those who are distorting their beliefs into this sort of depravity, but take direct action to stop it. Some wackjob religious sect in this country pulls something like this and I expect to see thousands, maybe millions of Americans screaming bloody murder to anybody who will listen. Cops, politicians, TeeVee reporters. You don't think that if something like this happened in this country some quasi-religious pack of hyenas gunned down and blew up hundreds of children, that hordes of infuriated common people wouldn't descend on the headquarters of the perpetrators? And possibly with guns, knives, bricks and bats?

The people of Pakistan know who and where these people are. The Taliban is a small fanatical minority. And yet, they operate in utter open contempt of the authorities. Fear is an excuse that only goes so far.

It has been denounced by--wait for it--the Afghan Taliban.

(The Afghan group is separate from the Pakistani Taliban, and has enjoyed a helpful relationship with Pakistani security forces, who were the target of this attack.)

But in all fairness, devout Muslims of course are as shocked and stricken by terrorism as anyone. Devout Muslims were the victims, in this and countless other cases. The call for more denunciations, every time, is a hallmark of anti-Muslim propaganda. Tour the RW sites if you don't believe me.

Here's part of an editorial from Vox on this subject:

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/739422...rrorism-sydney

Finally, you may want to review this essay, in which a Muslem activist explores this issue, and suggests the main problem is that constant denunciations of terrorism from individuals like himself are rarely reported in the mainstream media here. The pervasive drumbeat of "Where are the Muslem denunciations" from the right and others, effectively goes unanswered.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...rism-more.html

You are right.... Fear only goes so far which is why the Muslim leaders in my area are reaching out to the community to bridge the misunderstandings and fear.

They have made a lot of positive progress.

This has to do with a lack of a lack of a real middle class, education and the subjugating women thus allowing extremism to flourish.

What to do, given the fact of nukes in the country!


Barney

I don't think this is quite correct. Certainly there was and is support for the Taliban within the Pakistani government but not from the Army. Rather, the Taliban have been supported covertly by the ISI, Pakistan's intelligence service. In fact, the Taliban were essentially created by the ISI.

John

Some of the more vocal Muslim activist women have taken the risk to express that the subjugation of their gender is due to some of the language in the Quran. Certainly much of it is distorted interpretation by some Muslim men, but these comments from women need to be listened to.

My personal experience with several highly educated and successful families where the husband and wife were both born in Pakistan is that the guys tend to have this attitude toward women (diminishment is the best term I can think of) that just seems to creep out at the most unexpected times. Just my anecdotal experience, but a bit troubling for me nonetheless.

Over simple. Reality is very complex there.

The Pakistani definitely have had a relationship with the Afghan Taliban, messing up Afghanistan being seen as in their interest. The 'pakistani Taliban' is, however, a different bunch, and further, the 'Taliban' umbrella there covers a bunch of only-loosely affiliated groups with varying composition, goals, tactics, frineds, enemies, etc, etc etc.

The Pakistani Taliban arose after the US invasion of Afghanistan. It came about because the Talibs fled Afghanistan to a safe haven in North Waziristan where they have ethnic ties.

I'm sure that the ISI and perhaps the Pakistani Army were quite content to have the Taliban causing trouble in Afghanistan but not to have them wreaking havoc in their own back yard. That wasn't the plan at all.

So just like ISIS, which began as al Qaeda in Iraq and is led by a man whom the US arrested in Iraq and then released (presumably after a bit of "EIT"), the existence of a Taliban operating in Pakistan can be laid directly at the feet of Bush and Cheney.

John

Some posters in this thread seem to be forgetting who it is that suffered in this massacre and, for that matter, who it is who are carrying the fight to ISIS, the Taliban and AQAP. Muslims have suffered far more than any other group at the hands of these human obscenities.

John

I have a psychiatrist friend from Karachi. We don't talk politics much but I remember a while back after lunch I mentioned the fact that the government of this country, regardless of which party holds the Oval Office has the same attitude about the PKK (Kurkistan Worker's Party). It's the group that Obama's people have been looking to for active support against ISIS. But it's a long and convenient history for this country. Kurds have problems both in Iraq and in Turkey and there is active PKK in both countries. However...because the Turks are our long term allies, the Turkish PKK were categorized as a terrorist group by the US government, while the Iraq PKK, who were enemies of Saddam, were considered to be "freedom fighters" by the US government. It's the same goddamn PKK, of course and that schiz designation continues with Obama.

Anyway, one day I mentioned my disgust at this country's convenient attitude toward the PKK one day...Shaukat listened quietly. And when I was done, his only comment was, "Doesn't matter if they're in Turkey or in Iraq, they're Taliban."

Ah, the Kurds are taliban? Just goes to show how meaningless a term can get.

'Fighters of another tribe' seems to be the only common denominator.

But he's mistaken. The PKK are pretty much a secular and vaguely communist organization. They also have a strong feminist element in their ideology and even have women fighters in their ranks. (This scares the hell out of ISIS. The thought of being killed by a woman makes them wet their pants.)

Also, the PKK presence in Iraq has been sparse and contested until ISIS began knocking on the door of the Kurdish-controlled area of Iraq. There was open hostility, and occasional combat, between the PKK and the Peshmerga forces of the Kurdistan Regional Government.

Now the PKK and Peshmerga are conducting joint operations against ISIS. They are also an important force in the fight against ISIS in Syria, though the Turkish government has inexplicably taken steps to prevent PKK fighters from leaving Turkey to join the fight against ISIS.

John

I didn't say that, nor did my friend. He did not say that Kurds are Taliban, he said the PKK is Taliban. I believe his point was that the PKK is all about power for the PKK and will kill Kurds who oppose them just as quickly and effectively as it will kill ISIS, or members of the military and law enforcement of the countries wherein they reside. As obviously, will the Taliban.

It's all a matter of who is financing who and whose fight it is.
Who is financing the Afghan Taliban and the Pakistan Taliban now?

That's one story. You can look at my post above as well, if you're interested. PKK forces along the Syrian border have been shredded. There are many in the Kurdish community, perhaps the majority, who detest the PKK. There are many in the Kurdish community who would prefer being under the control of ISIS than under the control of the PKK. Nobody who knows the actual deal there wants the PKK in control of anything. They will kill anybody who opposes them, including their own Kurdish brethren who's freedom they are allegedly fighting for. Just as the Taliban will.

If that's what your friend meant, then his choice of words was poor. "Taliban" is the plural of talib which is the Arabic word for a student or "seeker of knowledge" with very distinct religious overtones. Rather than calling the PKK "Taliban", he might as well have called them "Nazis". It would have contained the same amount of detestation and accuracy.

John

Is that a rhetorical question? ;)

John

I know what the origin of the term "Taliban" is, professor. And their behavior certainly confirms the bastardization of what they choose to call themselves.

His choice of words was used purposefully to describe similar attitudes and agendas of groups he finds having much the same fucked up behaviors. But you're right...he might as well have called them nazis. That fits as well.

I've read all your posts in this thread and I don't see anything that disproves or even disputes anything I said about the PKK.

They've certainly had a tough time. That's for sure but "shredded" may be a bit of an overstatement. A large part of the reason for their difficulties is the Turkish efforts to deny them resupply and reinforcements. Politics and ideology aside, the PKK are very brave and very fierce fighters and it's a mistake to squander them in the fight against ISIS.

There is definitely a power struggle within the Kurdish diaspora with different groups vying for power. Each faction will have stories to tell about the evils of their opponents but, again, your statement above doesn't refute anything I've said about the PKK. They are not the "Taliban". They are secular and they are about a Kurdish homeland, not a global caliphate.

John

Then you'll agree with me that your friend's choice of words was inapt.

John

No, it is a serious question under the circumstances. If ISIS is the benefactor of Pakistani Taliban, it would be easier to control them. But do they have the will?

As far as I am concern ISI is a branch of the army, and is buttressed by influential persons within the structures of the Pakistani judiciary and government.

Check the connections to the Mumbai Massacre and the blocks to those seeking information and justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

In many areas the Pakistani/Afghanistan border is seamless.

I was thinking about the Mumbai Massacre when I was posting. Definitely a creature of the Pakistani army (and the government as a whole) but the North Waziristan version of the Taliban is nobody's. They have no use for the Pakistan government at all. They want total autonomy.

John

Taliban are Pushtun, an independent tribe (like the Kurd's) which straddles Afghanistan and Pakistan. Unlike the Kurds who are nationalistic, the Taliban want an austere version of Islam in their land. Ethnically they have very little in common with Pakisitan and consider the NW region of Pakistan part of their homeland, again similar to the Kurds except for Islamic fundamentalism.

I don't think the Taliban have access to the means necessary to finance anyone. They depend on wealthy benefactors, mostly in Saudi Arabia, to funnel money their way. So too does ISIS but, now, to a far lesser extent. They are generating tons of money on their own by selling Iraqi and Syrian oil on the black market and have equipped themselves with the materiel that we provided the Iraqi Army and which they left behind when they deserted en masse.

John

Years back we were sitting in the airport at London waiting for our flight. An Iranian man sitting with his wife (I am guessing it was his wife as she/it was wrapped head to foot in black. Well the a**hole gets up and stands in front of Florence and demands (in Farsi) to know if she was Iranian. I yelled no at him and he backed off. They not only mistreat their own women but seem to think thay can bully all women.

While I'm not defending the cultural norms toward women in those countries which allows that behavior, ...... I find that many men right here in the United States treat women in a similar manner, albeit not as extreme. But, because that behavior is not culturally sanctioned in the United States, acknowledgement of it is often dismissed.

I'm not talking about all men in the states.... But there are quite a few of the "keep them barefoot and pregnant" mentality.

Absolutely. And I'll take it a step further. The more fundamentally religious the background of these men in Muslim countries, Europe or the US, the more likely the attempts at subjugation...and the more fundamentally oriented, the more severe the subjugation.

You're picking a nit with me John. My friend's point was that when it comes to the two groups and their interactions with the government's they might oppose or when it comes to their treatment of anyone who opposes them, including their fellow Kurds for whom they allegedly desire a homeland (or in the case of the Taliban their fellow Pashtuns), there's no difference between the PKK and the Taliban. To him the notion of the secularism of the PKK versus the religious fanaticism of the Taliban means nothing...when to the victims, the philosophy makes not one bit of difference.

It's pretty obvious that both you and your friend are pretty clueless on issues of geopolitics. I knew that about you already, but now I have the same impression of your friend.

No difference? No difference? Jesus wept! When was the last time the PKK murdered 135 school children? How often have they shot a teenage girl in the head because she spoke out for the education of girls?

John

To him, anybody other than card-carrying members of Likud or The Jewish Home party are terrorists.

Well stated.