"Fair Tax"
 

I have listened to Neal Boortz for quite a while talk about the "Fair Tax" and I believe it to be a viable option. You can google "Fair Tax" and find lots of info. Anybody care to comment?

It's an idea.

I like it a heck of a lot better than the flat income tax proposed elsewhere on this board, but I believe it's got the same basic drawback - that is, that it's regressive, putting a proportionately higher burden on lower-income workers who are likely to spend near 100% of their income on taxable goods.

Fairtax at least takes steps to address this problem, which flat tax does not. Still, I remain unconvinced that it would really be equitable once it was implemented in a "real world" situation, even taking into account that lower-income people would quickly establish a thriving black market.

All in all, I'm ambivalent on the subject, probably coming down just on the other side of against it, but I congratulate Boortz on a well-thought-out idea and a wonderful marketing job. If you're against Fairtax, it inherently means you support unfair taxation practices, right?

"it's regressive, putting a proportionately higher burden on lower-income workers who are likely to spend near 100% of their income on taxable goods"

Isn't that true no matter what the tax system? Also, are you taking into account the "Prebate", whereby everyone recieves the amount of tax they would pay to purchase the necessities of life monthly. This would make the lower-income paying proportionately less tax than the well-off, who would be buying more luxury items.

Fair and Tax should never be used in the same sentence.

Whatever were they smoking? Simplification my arse.

Have you read the proposal?

Yes I read it and I still want to know what they were smoking.

Is it not much less complex than the present system?

Less complex but it certainly does not live up to its name.

How so?

It may be one of the only aptly named proposals with the word "Fair" in it in history. Fat chance it would ever happen, but after much reading, I'm a huge fan of the FairTax.

Now we middle class folks mainly vacation here so we get taxed. The wealthy folk go to the Cote D'Azur and cough up tax on 50% of their airfare and that is it.

They say employees keep all their wages and pensioners keep all their pension, sure if you don't eat, turn off all the lights and freeze in the dark.

Hey, sounds good to me. :D

So it's not "fair" that someone has worked hard and made enough to be able to afford a vacation overseas? For maybe a couple of weeks they won't be paying consumption taxes in the U.S. You don't think that the rest of the year the wealthy consume more than the middle class and make up for it?

You are eating with the lights and heat on now. Whats the difference?

I personally would rather decide how much of my hard earned money goes to taxes (by how much I consume) than the present way of things.

BTW, I am enjoying this conversation with you. :)

I could care less one way or the other but the stereotype that the rich have worked hard and the implied the poor are lazy is just plain bogus. The hardest working people I have ever know have been "dirt" poor and the wealthiest people I know have never sweat in the way theses same poor people have.
Where are all these hard workers? I guess you mean the 9-5 wall street crowd.


I feel better now, go on.

But if the majority of their vacations are off-shore they escape a lot of taxation. BTW do you really believe Paris Hilton worked hard for her money.:D

"the stereotype that the rich have worked hard and the implied the poor are lazy is just plain bogus. "

I agree. Some rich work hard and some don't. Some poor work hard and some don't. I would think that most of the manual labor done is done by what we call the " middle class". That doesn't mean that the more monied don't work hard. It means that they work in a differant manner. I don't know anyone that works on Wall Street but I would bet if you asked one of them, they would say that they work hard. Everyone has a choice of how they will make a living in this country. Some choose to work in a field that doesn't reward as much monetarily but gives satisfaction in other ways. That is their choice. Just as it is the choice of others to go for the money. I am simply trying to say that in my opinion the "Fair Tax" treats everyone the same. If you want to pay a lot in tax, buy a lot of new stuff. If you don't want to pay a lot of tax, buy used stuff.


"But if the majority of their vacations are off-shore they escape a lot of taxation"

Yes, but a years worth?

"BTW do you really believe Paris Hilton worked hard for her money."


I am afraid of using the name Paris Hilton and the word "hard" in the same sentence. :rolleyes::D

We live well, pay our taxes, we worked our butts off all our lives and plan on enjoying the fruits of our labours.

Deciding that we will never fly again I gave all my miles to a vetrans organization. Marriott said I could convert all my hotel points to vouchers and that came out to $300 worth.

I made out several Christmas cards, one was addressed directly to a Lieutenant who was written up in the Post. Packaged it all and sent it to Walter Reed - got the whole lot back, even the card addressed to the Lieutenant with a note on it "Person not at this facility". Had to practically ram the vouchers down the Red Cross' throat. Yet we have homeless veterans out on the street.

I will cheerfully pay my taxes to see that our wounded warriors are well looked after.

I salute you sir for your devotion to the ones that make our way of life possible.

So, I guess none of you guys work for a living? You are all capitalists who make your living by investing your capital? Who else would be so enthusiastic about a plan to shift nearly all the tax burden in the US onto themselves?

I gotta hand it to the super wealthy establishment though. If they can float this lead ball and get this many working stiffs hard over it, they DO have some MoJo.

If you want to get informed on how this "fair tax" screws you - learn which groups and which economists are the watchdogs for working people's economic interests, and see what they have to say about this.
Neal Bortz?? <sigh>

All I needed to know about "Fair Tax" is in this sentence from their website:

I want our Fed and State Governments to STOP SPENDING MY MONEY and get their budgets under control. Any Tax plan that does not include MASSIVE REDUCTIONS in taxation of all types does not meet my approval. :mad:

I seem to recall some guys who took matters into their own hands over unfair taxation issues a couple of hundred years ago.

Ah, but Todd-it ain't YOUR money-it's the Imperial Federal Gummint's money...An' they'll spend it any damn way they please, & YOU don't have any say in it, boy...And no, they are NEVER gonna spend LESS of it, Just get down on yr knees & thank your lucky stars that they aren't taking MORE of it- at least for right now they're not. Remember, all you snivelling worms-We BELONG to the Imperial Federal Gummint-and none of you actually OWN anything- Don't pay yr land taxes on yr house & you'll find out REAL quick what I'm talking about...

"You are all capitalists who make your living by investing your capital?"
My wife and I made just a little over $50,000.00 in 2008. Hardly wealthy.



"learn which groups and which economists "
Tell me who you are thinking about and I will try to learn.

"The FairTax rate of 23&#37; (when calculated inclusively like income tax rates) has been thoroughly researched to provide all the revenues now collected under both the income tax system and through FICA payroll taxes."

One of the stipulations of the study was to find a tax structure that would fund the programs that exist now. Cutting programs is an entirely different matter. With the Fair Tax, the power to create class warfare is eliminated and any increase in the tax rate would be voted upon by the public.

Actual tax rates here are quite possibly the lowest of any industrialized country (well we used to be industrialized, but that's another thread). Consequently our infrastructure is quite possibly the worst of any industrialized country.

When we took a vacation trip to Nova Scotia some years back we looked at an island in Maine, complete with house and dock - should have bought the place.

If, instead of pi**ing all that money up against the wall in Iraq they had fixed some roads and bridges we would be in better shape.

It is not a way of lowering taxes, just a superior way to collect taxes which would stimulate growth- the more you consume, the more tax you pay. Lowering taxes is a seperate problem that requires the government to spend less...

:confused:

In order to lower my taxes I would consume no more than absolutely necessary - I fail to see how that would stimulate growth.

That's my point - they will never learn to control spending until we stop funding them at the current levels. 23&#37;? GTFO! 10% would be a good starting point.

Some of the growth would come from corporations moving back to this country from overseas. More jobs = more growth.

Corporations are already beginning to re-think their love affair with all things Chinese. Wait until the Chinese reverse engineer all the Intel and TI chips and start underselling them world wide.

There is only one fair tax. That is where I pay no taxes and everyone else ponies up to fund the government. Once you start taxing me tthen we're in a negotiation phase.

All seriousness aside, there never has been, nor can there ever be, a fair tax so long as we have people with varying levels of income, personal spending habits, families, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

Fair tax is just different, that's all.

A fairer current system would be to stop paying welfare to all the home-owners. Why the hell should the Federal and state governments subsidize the housing units of every person who pays interest above the standard deduction level? Yes. It's welfare!

So if you don't want to be part of the welfare state stop deducting your mortgage interest. That usually goes over pretty badly when I bring it up.

"A fairer current system would be to stop paying welfare to all the home-owners. Why the hell should the Federal and state governments subsidize the housing units of every person who pays interest above the standard deduction level? Yes. It's welfare!"

With the "Fair Tax" there would be no deductions for mortgage interest because the deductions come off your income tax. No income tax = no deductions. You would pay the tax up-front when you bought the house, one time, over and done with.

Now let's see if I understand this correctly. I buy a house. I pay monthly mortgage payments from previously taxed money. The bank is going to pay taxes on the interest they earned from my already taxed money.

If I can't deduct my interest that makes me essentially paying tax twice on that money as well.

Here's an idea for ya, stop giving my money to the lazy shits that won't work! I work hard for the money that comes into and out of my home. I already get whacked for making my home look nice via town taxes and reassessments. I already get whacked even harder for school taxes.

Sorry to veer OT here.

If I had to go with a tax plan at all I'm for this one. I will save money when I continue to buy second hand stuff when I need it.

This is a familiar war cry that no working man would disagree with, the problem is I have never meet this "lazy shit" and don't really think he exists.

Philosophically, I totally agree. That being said I would not vote for it as I benefit mightily under the current system.

"Now let's see if I understand this correctly. I buy a house. I pay monthly mortgage payments from previously taxed money. The bank is going to pay taxes on the interest they earned from my already taxed money."

That's the way it is now. Under the "Fair Tax" your mortgage payments would be paid from money that had NOT been taxed before. There would be no income tax, no corporate taxes, so the bank would not be paying taxes on the interest they earned from your money.

You don't live in Vermont I can tell. Without taking 3 steps in any direction I could take pictures of at least two in my town. The sad part is how blatant they are about it, almost to the point of being proud.

What can anyone do about it? You can't call them out or embarass them into working, all we can do is support their deadbeat a$$es.

At least they have nice rent-by-the-week furniture delivered last week. Wonder when the truck will be back by to collect it.

Let's discuss this.
I certainly don't know the people you are talking about but my experience has shown me that when people have the capabilities to advance themselves they do. I could be wrong, my wife will testify to that but share some more info before I put my foot in my mouth.
What actions do they take or not take that makes you call them, "deadbeats."
What makes you think they don't want to work?
What is it they are blatant about?
"rent-by-the-week furniture" sounds like they are struggling, how do you interpret it?

If I can drive by at any hour of the day and see these folks sitting on the porch, car in driveway, kids out playing in the sprinkler. To me that spells welfare. Then again I could be mistaken and they are independently wealthy.

I agree on people with capabilities however I believe some of these folks have figured out that it's so much easier to do a little under the table and collect than it is to have and keep a real job that produces for the family, town, and country.

I really believe it's a whole thought process now, passed down through the last couple generations, that someone else should pay your way through life. Sorry, I wasn't raised that way.

I can agree that rent-by-the-week would indicate less than ample reserves. Having said that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you could buy that $2000.00 computer for a meager $500.00 at WalMart for instance. Same goes with all of that furniture. SAVE THE MONEY until you can pay cash rather than pissing it away every week for someone else's benefit.

As an aside I have a hard time with the business ethics of rental companies like these. I'm all for business and making a profit but the profits these companies SHOULD make (I realize there will be losses and maybe said losses eat most of the profits, I don't know) are simply outrageous. Maybe the great one could regulate them.

I submit the rest of my time to Senator Noonereal. :D

This is a problem and so far no one has found a good solution. I'll give you an example of sorts. Many years ago back in Canada there was a means test for the old age pension (there still is to an extent because if your total income is above some limit the pension can be reduced). However, the means test back then did not even allow you to own your home. Even in the small town I grew up in I recall an elderly couple who had paid all their dues and had acquired a modest cottage but no significant pension, do what many elderly people did. They deeded the house to their son and thus qualified for the pansion. The son ran short of money and sold the house.

The Conservative government of that time (the same one that brought Single Payer to health care) thought this was unfair and abolished the means test.

Perhaps some lazy people are getting the old age pension but I think that solution was for the greater good.

While riding around on the tractor mowing the grass I started thinking about taxes and I think the Republicans are the tax'em guys. I worked up until age 73, I wanted to defer my SS until I retired. They would not let me although there is a provision for just that idea, it pushed me into a higher tax bracket for 8 years. At 70 and 1/2 they made me make a minimum withdrawal from my 104k, yet another higher tax bracket for 2-1/2 years. Bunch of effing thieves IMHO.

Taxes
 

I'm afraid they're all tax'em guys. And it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

It's not just the money, it's the power that goes with the money that politicians, of all stripes, are addicted to. About all an election does is make the bastards come out of the palace and suck up to us serfs...at least for a little while.

It must really frost their asses to have to pretend that they're "one of us". If someone ever invents a decent robot, and mass produces them, the politicians will get rid of us serfs.

Chas