Christian Nation?
 

Or a secular nation in which each individual is free to make their own spiritual choices?

With the GOP potentially being on the upswing in the coming year, we are most likely about to start hearing lots of "Christian Nation" propaganda being bantored about once again. Already Fox had a piece about some courthouse in Kentucky re-hanging the Ten Commandments in their lobby as a group of onlookers sang "God Bless America". We will hear all about how "The Founders" were all God-fearing Bible thumpers, the underlying insinuation being that they were all Conservative Republicans, of course. And my favorite Wing-nut at work will start running his mouth about "Rounding everyone else up and running them the fuck out!". And Hannity and Beck will go on, "blah,blah,blah", in perpetuity.

As many of you already know, I tend to believe we live in a secular nation that affords us the right to make our own inividual choice. And that all of this "Christian Nation" hooey is just that---hooey designed to elicit votes from Bible thumpers and rednecks.

As far as "The Founders" go. I tend to believe that one thing that remains constant---is human nature. Many of them may have been devout Christians, but I suspect the crowd may have been every bit as diverse (Spiritually) as todays crowd. And they may have just been using religion for the same purpose politicians use it today---to elicit support from Bible thumpers and rednecks.:D

So, what do you say, Fellas?

Dave

We don't need the religious right dragging this country backwards again.

Actually, a bunch of our Founding Fathers (e.g., Jefferson, Franklin) were pretty skeptical about religion, particularly in the political arena (as am I).

As for today's GOP, their symbiotic relationship with the Religious Right (and its effect on their politics) is one of my biggest complaints about them. I think it's clear (and generally OK) that the Judeo-Christian ethic informs a lot of our politics. However, I believe the way the GOP caters to the Falwell/Robertson/Bob Jones wing of the party is both sickening and harmful to the political well-being of the nation.

thought that's what I said. ;)

That is somewhat true today, but less true than it was years ago. In a few more years the revision of history will be complete and Paul Revere will have displayed his "one if by land, two if by sea" lanterns in the bell tower of the First Baptist church.

I'm not going down this long long road again, but will say that, back in the years of old, Christianity was the baseline - of course you were Christian.

It's difficult to understand different cultures, which it certainly was then.

Strange how both Hillary and Obama claim to be Christian. Pandering?

Pete

If this is accurate, I would have to believe that our founders were overwhelmingly Christian, anyway.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

Here's another with quotation regarding religion and Christianity from many of them. It's arguably bias but I would like to believe that the quotations are correct.

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

RC

here is a good christian boy preparing to be president

http://morningcupofcoffee.files.word...heerleader.jpg

Do you think Obama would be president if he ran as a Muslim?

Whether he is or not is none of my business. But can you imagine the uproar if it was ever proven he is?

This is a sample of what the founding fathers thought about Christianity.
Benjamin Franklin: "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
John Adams: "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
James Madison: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
Thomas Jefferson: "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity.”
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

Well, I was going to upload a file of Jeffersons comments on the subject from the VA dept. of Education, but it keeps coming up "Invalid file".

You can find it by going to Google and searching "Jeffersons thoughts on Politics and Religion"---a fascinating read.

It really helped me to understand how one can at once hold Christian beliefs, but support "Separation of Church and State".

As I recall; "The wall of separation must remain high and impenetrable."
Also, "I know of no free nation, ridden with priests."--T.J.
(These are from memory, so bear that in mind.)


Regards,

Dave

ROTFLMAO

A christian nation? Best one I have heard all day.

Jesus said ". . .and the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Maybe I can get them to point the Hubble down here to see if it can observe much of this neighbourly loving, unless maybe it is his neighbour's wife.:rolleyes:

I've also heard it explained that the nation was founded by "Puritans" who came here seeking "religious freedom".
It would be more accurate to say that the Puritans were EXPELLED from Europe because of the extreme and abusive methods they used in the practice of their religion, and the founding fathers feared the establishment of a state religion would lead to the same type of abuses. Makes perfectly good sense to me. Look at the type of society the "Puritans" set-up when they got here............but, I'm sure THAT is all a big lie now, as well.:rolleyes:

Regards,
Dave

True,

I wonder what Jesus would have to say about denying people healthcare---because we think they didn't do anything to deserve it?

Dave

Go read "Jeffersons thoughts on Politics and Religion", Rob. It'll make your day.

Dave

Outside of Jefferson, who btw considered the Federal Government FORIEGN (good luck SS let alone healthcare) and would've supported the teabaggers, those talk about ORGANIZED religion, not Christianity itself.

There was a good reason they wanted this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

it's the same reason it's together with free speech and free press - government control of religion interferes with free expression.

Very sad and very true. I'm afraid it was always thus.

Who's the new guy?

Pete

Um, no. They were often burned at the stake and left to live in peace.

When one of the Puritans controlled England (Cromwell) those practices largely stopped and England became one of the most tolerant countries in Europe.

Pete

Whut????

Why, didn't you know? Jesus refused to perform his miracle cures for people with pre-existing conditions or who had reached their lifetime limit for miracles.

John

There are two sides to that coin. Madison's primary concern was that government would exert undue influence on religion and bend it to its purposes. Jefferson's concern was the exact opposite. The truth, as fr as I'm concerned, is that there is an equal danger of both.

John

There's no explaining this to some people. So I'll say my piece and be done with it. The quotes have already been posted, so I'll spare you. It's quite clear to me that some of the founding fathers were dubious of religion.

Pete hit on it, but I think draws a different conclusion. It's like the question above- could Obama run as a Muslim and be elected. We all know the answer. Look what being Mormon did to the best candidate the Republicans had last go 'round. And they're even christians, or so they say. We're creatures of our time and place.

For instance- in most of the world, "Socialist" is a set of beliefs that many in the population agree with. In many countries, "Socialist" is one of the political parties. There are people in the United States that would share many beliefs with people who self identify as "Socialist" in other parts of the world. Would anyone seeking public office ever run as a "Socialist"? Of course not, not if they ever wanted to be elected. It would be political suicide. The term has a meaning in this time and in this place that is unique.

So, were the founding fathers Christian? Sure they were, to the degree they went to church. They wouldn't be "the founding fathers" if they handn't. It's the way things were then. But it's quite clear that on a more personal level, these were smart, deep thinking men who explored thought and questioned everything. Many of them seem to have come to the conclusion that Religion wasn't all it was cracked up to be. And even more clearly, they set up the rules by which this nation is governed with that in mind.

Sure, you can twist what is clear into some absurd notion that they were Bible thumphing fundamentalists in a time when there were no Bible thumphing fundimentalists. But that's more than a little silly. It's like those pictures of Jesus you see looking like he's a blond haried European. Seems unlikely, but that's what some people chose to believe no matter how absurd.

So, is it a Christian nation? Sure it is, in so much as most people here would self identify as Christian. Should that have anything to do with our governance? Sure it should- people will govern themselves based on their beliefs. But should we be very careful about protecting ourselves from becoming a nation of zelots ruled by religion instead of laws. We should, and we should to a very extreem degree. The Alternative is to become a Christian version of the Talaban, ruling on myth, superstition and *someone's* interpretation of some religous text. That can lead to a lot of bad, bad decisions.

Hey, I already made that joke on this forum somewhere...

Sen. Bernie Sanders but point taken.

John

Well, a good joke is worth stealing, right? ;)

John

I absolutely agree.

Thank you for the great post.

All but a bare handful of the folks in question were indeed 'real' Christians. What they were dubious of was 'organized' religion, and had millions of very darn good reasons to be. Prosecution was still going on in Europe at the time, as it had since time began. Dickens in his usual pointed way says things like 'he was burned by the King to show what a fine Christian he was' (this was earlier times though).

For the record, what we think of as Bible thumpers don't hold a candle to the popular Pastors of that day.

Pete

I would vote for an atheist before any other, all things considering.

+10, I need a campaign manager!:rolleyes:

Works for me.

Isn't there something in the Bible that says God will help those that help themselves? Or have I just developed schizophrenia and hear someone else besides the preacher in Church?

Yeah, I know, but you know what I mean.

Yes, and then there is the man who asked Jesus to forgive his sins, and Jesus said because you were kind to me they are forgiven. The man said "But Lord I never saw you before today" Jesus replied "Inasmuch as you have helped the least of my servants you have helped me."

I do note recall reading that He ever said "Ignore your fellow man and take no notice of his troubles." but then I might have missed summat.:rolleyes:

Jesus gets roped into EVERYTHING. Socialist jesus, racist jesus, conservative jesus, green jesus. Now it's the healthcare jesus. Generally by not so religious folks.

I don't recall Him saying anything about forcing others to do what he wants :hdscratch:

Pete

I think you would be hard pressed to make a case that Jesus would be a republican.

Personal responsibility? Hmmm....

But He would of course not be, being a dictator ;)

Pete

But Pete, "Is you ever seen a one-eyed woman cry. That saddest thing about that one-eyed woman is that tears don't come out of but just one eye."

Now, I wonder where rappers got their ideas about misogyny?:rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray

Personal responsibility? Interesting. It seems that being born poor negates someone from being personally responsible according to right wing doctrine.


Do you really believe Jesus viewed the poor as personally irresponsible?

What about social responsibility?

Certainly Jesus advocated this. Republicans now days think of social responsibility as a curse and infringement on personal greed.

Anyone making a case that Jesus would have been a republican is perverting
his teaching.

Lol!

But a Democrat, on the other hand...

Pete

I guess we are a Christian nation after all. Our soldiers in Afghanistan have rifle scopes with bible verses inscribed on them by the manufacturer, Trijicon. Onward Christian Soldiers, indeed.

I wish you'd share that with the right wing nut jobs who use "His word" to justify all manner of legislation to force us all to "do what he wants".

What legislation are you referring to?

Pete