Woodstock Question
 

The language barrier is fucking shitty crap :eek: - anyway I can't stay away from this forum entirely...:rolleyes: I tried but as you see I failed...:rolleyes:

;)


I watched the Woodstock video some zillion times and I always asked myself: Hey where were the black kids in the audience? I mean - how many of them were black? Some 0,1% or so?

Love peace and racism?

At that time in our history, at least in my experience, the black and white races stayed pretty much with their own. As an example, in the Army Mess Hall at Ft. Stewart, Ga., blacks were on one side of the room and whites were on the other, often separated by a section of empty tables. Anyone could have had a seat anywhere within the room but that's the way it worked out.

That being said, the black musicians at Woodstock were certainly welcome. Richie Havens, Sly, Jimi, did I leave anybody out?

It was a music entertainment event. Then and now, while there are some black entertainers that find white audiences, there are few white entertainers that find black audiences.

It was a "60's youth culture" event. The long-hairs were basically middle-class kids rejecting the culture of their parents. There weren't so many black middle-class kids, and those that existed tended to be focused on hanging tightly onto social status, not rejecting it.

It still remains the case that African-Americans don't really get into the same music as their white counterparts (though a lot of white youth do get into black music (e.g., hip hop). For example, I went to the Dylan, Wilco, My Morning Jacket show this summer and, despite a very large crowd, there were precious few, if any, blacks there.

OTOH, I went to the Mississippi Delta Blues Fest in Greenville, MS in September. There were upwards of 10,000 people there, only 50-100 of which were white (most of whom were young northern Europeans).

This is very very astonishing. I thought Woodstock was about music. I never discriminated between white and black music. I loved black music when I was ten listenting to Dad's Satchmo vinyl and I loved black music watching Mother's Finest live on TV when I was 13. I DID NOT NOTICE that the musicians of Mother's Finest were black, apart from the bass player, I was fascinated by the groove of that great funk rock band.

This is very confusing. Young black people with a crappy barrier in their brain. They had just to close their eyes listening to Joe Cocker's black music.

JJIII what about the uniting reconciling character of music? I can understand that young black and white people in the late sixties liked to be amongst each other but a music festival - isn't that an exceptional event?????

Finnbow what you say about this Delta fest is astonishing as well...

There is also this thing in the black community:The fear of appearing white or going white...selling out:

Listen to country, rock music or classical music.

Speak grammatically correct.

Play golf before Tiger Woods era.

Show an interest in astronomy or in general appear studious. :D

I think you are missing something Haman Kardon


people go to shows that they want to see...most artists at Woodstock appealed mainly to whites....

If the playbill had included more of the soul and R&B artists who were hugely popular at the time more African Americans would have attended.

In other words I do not think there was any overt segregation or racism going on at Woodstock ...on either side.

I guess you would have to have grown up here in the U.S.A. to understand just how separated the races were and are still. In some ways things are better but we have leaders, both black and white, that gain monetarily from stirring up as much hatred as they can.

In his book "Woodstock: An Encyclopedia of the Music and Art Fair" James Perone cites a study that reported 95% white, 1.5% black, 1% Latino, balance...uh...other. That said...

Anybody who wanted to go through the ordeal required to get there was more than welcome when they got there. And it ended up being free so if you couldn't afford tickets and were able to get there, so nobody can suggest that it was discriminatory toward anybody who might have been financially disadvantaged at the time.

Back in those days we spent most of whatever disposable entertainment money we had at one of the great local Chicago blues clubs, usually the original Kingston Mines club on Lincoln Ave. The musicians were 99% black, the majority of the audience was typically white...but I'm remembering that blacks usually made up at least a quarter of the blues club audiences back then...certainly a higher number than their percentage of the general population.

Love, peace and racism? I'm not sure what this question is actually all about.

JJIII Is that so? Oh my - what a pity. I confess that I am obviously too far away to register the current sad significance of American Apartheid.

Ike Bana just try to understand that it is the point of view of a European.

My 02, it is getting better. When I was a kid towns were still segregated, and while still partially true here they are far more integrated, on a scale impossible here in the 60s and 70s.

Cultural groups of all kinds tend to flock together.

Pete

Your posts guys were very helpful, thanks. Now I understand. Thanks Pete for at least one positive remark in connection with the current black & white situation.

Wasn't there a Dave Chappelle skit with John Mayer about how white people love acoustic guitar and black people love drums?

Black and white can jam and smoke together.

Pete

Indeed, just two years prior interracial marriage was still illegal in 17 states.

One of the headliners at Woodstock was Jimmy Hendrix. He still smokes......

The United States is far more multi-cultural than Germany, HK. Of the many cultures here, many like to retain their cultural heritage when it comes to music, food, dress, etc. Accordingly, many blacks simply don't like rock & roll and many whites don't like rap/hip-hop.

Consider your own home country, HK. There are over 4 million Turks there, representing over 5% of the population. Go to a concert that appeals to German youth and you won't see Turks in that percentage. I went to bunches of rock & roll concerts in Germany and don't think I saw a single Turk.

As Finnbow put it, it was simply different tastes in music Chris. There was no "Peace, Love and racism". In fact, the idea is ludicrous.

Music has cultural roots. Experiences and perspectives are shared and advanced through music. The music of Woodstock was a calling to middle class kids.

Most middle class kids were not black in the 60's.

Personally HK, I wouldn't put a great amount of "stock" into Woodstock. Get it???

It was an aberration, not the norm. Peace, love, rock and roll, drugs, and freeloading...a once in a lifetime myth packaged and sold to the "what if" generation. A lot of talented musicians no doubt, but the myth transcends the music. Less than a sum of it's parts in my estimation.

I'll guarantee you, had it lasted for a couple of weeks instead of a couple of days, those peace loving hippies would have been eating one another.

If you want to appreciate American culture, or any culture, Altamont would be a better example.

Kind of reminds me of a quote ATTRIBUTED to de Gaulle, "Kennedy is the nations mask, Johnson is the nations face."

The Woodstock snapshot was of a different culture, which no longer exists, it didn't really exist then. I have a collection of filters for my Pentax, when used correctly they can enhance reality. Or make it even worse than it is.

In essence, a snapshot taken at 1/1000 second.

Chas

As a rule, the simplest explanation is often the most insightful.

Chas

The 'peace and music' myth (and it is a myth of course, but why do you think that means it isn't true?) irritates conservatives. They often feel moved to make assertions like the above when reminded of it.

It's an interesting reaction. I wonder what it means?

It existed.

It exists still. Just a touch grayer these days.

Chas is talking about the silent majority that elected Nixon...to be fair that was where most of America was in 1969


not that I agree about Chas on almost anything thank goodness...I would not say Altamont was representative of the USA either. It is never black and white.


I think Tom Joad hit the nail on the head...I do not know if Tom is giving Chas the finger from an esrtwhile "hippie"...or if Tom is being sort of ironic in that the character shown was sort of the dark side of the counter culture.....I don't remember if Dennis Hopper was flower power type of character in the movie or more of biker type ...but he and Peter Fonda were businessmen since they were transporting coke or something...they were on the take too in other words.

I was too young but I remember hippies in the popular culture and the word war being spray painted on the stop signs. The sixties really took place between 1965-1975....

I remember my history professors in the early 80s talking about the ambivalent nature of the counter culture...it had good aspects and some bad ones. When I finally discovered Zappa in 2010 or so his album We're Only In It For The Money really dovetailed with what I was told by people who were there in the 60s. Zappa and my old professors were on the same page.

HarmanKardon...love, peace and racism? If that's one European's point of view of the Woodstock Music and Art Festival of 1969, then what I understand is that one European's point of view of the Woodstock Music and Art Festival of 1969 is dead wrong.

I'm curious Chas...how old are you?

Oh my oh my - I opened a "big barrel" (as we say)... :D So I quote myself: "Now I understand". I already understood without all the following posts!

"Love peace and racism!" - my first attempt in this forum being somehow ironic or even a bit cynical in order to put some more horse powers into my starting post. Please stop to stone me for this remark now. :rolleyes:

Finnbow I am living in a small town with 6000 residents, but there are 41 different nationalities. (Perhaps you google "Tief im weltoffenen Schwarzwald taz" and use a qualified translator service) This is rather exceptional but Germany actually became very tolerant in the last decades, and each time when neo nazis attack people here with non-german origin celebrating their fucking xenophobia the public gets furious.

But of course I know what you are trying to say. When "Zappa plays Zappa" performs most people in the audience are intellectual Germans or people from English speaking countries.

Chas thanks for "It was an aberration, not the norm!" This makes things very clear.

Chas is my age. :D

HarmanKardon (BTW - one of your turntables, T-45, is among my favorite pieces of vintage audio gear) if you're going to rely on random utterances from Chas as a foundation for your impressions of American culture in the 60's (or American culture any time for that matter) you could be doomed to end up anything but clear.

I still don't know if Chas has formulated his particular opinions on this subject from some personal adult experiences he had in 1969...hell, he may even be one of the 17 million people who say they were at Woodstock that summer. Or perhaps he's a youngster who gets his cultural pinnings from his collection of books by Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter...and when he's interested in some really deep intellectual investigation Pat Buchanan.:rolleyes:

Either way HK...I suggest exercising caution in your choice of sources.

Uh...OK then I'll assume, Chas was old enough to have attended the Fair (and not in diapers), and didn't because he was either a Young Republican, or maybe even a member of the Up With Young White Caucasians singing group and he's still pissed off that their application to perform at Woodstock was rejected out of hand by Artie Kornfeld.

How do you explain Nixon winning in 1968 and then winning huge in 1972?
Charles is just saying hippiedom was not the norm in the 1960s....

Applause! Well said.

OUCH!

Pete

As far as who wins Presidential elections go...I don't think it's but in the last 20 years that there are enough young people with some intellectual curiosity and willingness to get out and work for candidates much less actually get out and vote to begin to see it in Presidential elections. But we're seeing it. The Republicans have lost 5 of the last 6 popular presidential votes. And they don't know what to do about it. I think they should listen to idiots like Limbaugh actually. Get back to their strict conservative ideals. Yep...sure, you guys go ahead and do that, and then watch yourself lose 6 of the next 6 popular votes.

Now regarding Chas...I think Chas is saying a lot more than that. For one, I think Chas is clearly implying that the people who showed up at Woodstock were hypocrites. I think they very much represented the norm of their age group in the late 1960's. The majority of people that I knew were listening to Jimi and the Dead and getting high with each other in 1969. That's just my anecdotal experience of course...but I'm gonna go with that.

As i noted before, some people who are conservative, seem to find the 'peace and love' mindset irritating, and have this emotional need to assert that pacifist, 'share the world' types are actually selfish and aggressive bastards like everyone else.

I don't really understand this, and find it odd.

What rank of peacenik are we talking here? Ayers, Garcia, Clinton, or the full Chong? :p

Pete

Ike I just can tell you that Chas' remark sounds quite reasonable to me. You know... it is very difficult for me to get a correct image sitting in the very very far distance, grown up in the seventies, in a totally different culture and so on and so on...very difficult...

Harmon... It has been said that if you remember Woodstock, then you weren't there. ;)

I think the gap between the elected republican politicians and the counter culture at the time is more a result of the mainstream lagging behind the movement.

It wasn't until upper middle class and middle class kids started to get drafted into the Vietnam war that the 'older generation' (parents) started to question the policies of republicans in office.

We are talking about 1969...
I think Merle Haggard was popular then too...

I think Charles meant to say that Woodstock was not representative of all of America at the time...