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-   -   The new Surge of private contractors. (http://www.politicalchat.org/showthread.php?t=649)

piece-itpete 12-16-2009 02:53 PM
The new Surge of private contractors.
 
I thought this was bad bad bad.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...udy.php?ref=mp

Pete

Boreas 12-16-2009 03:44 PM
Yeah, it's bad, really bad, but on a percentage basis it's actually not as bad as it was under Bush. Rumsfeld started this huge reliance on contractors and the result is our military is so "bare bones" that now we have to rely on them to conduct operations. Did you know that Xe, formerly Blackwater, has its own navy and air force?

What I worry most about is all the Special Ops personnel we have operating in Pakistan and Iran. It's known that a large percentage of those people are mercenaries but, because of the clandestine nature of the ops, we don't know how many people are there or what they're up to. We do know, however, that in some cases the mercs are running their own operations, apparently without the participation of or the supervision from government personnel.

John

BlueStreak 12-17-2009 01:05 AM
Yep. Isn't that the tune Americas right wing marches to, the privatization of EVERYTHING? Just imagine what lies ahead, guys, a military no longer under the control of democratically elected officials. The worlds most powerful military force, under the control of corporate executives, with a mind of it's own, accountable to no one. I wonder how long it will be before these people decide that our right to vote is just a pain in the ass that they will no longer tolerate? Where will all of our freedom loving, forefather quoting conservative friends be then? I guess that's when we find out just how much they really do value the principles upon which this nation was founded, Huh?

This is the "unwarranted influence" that I worry about. "Influence"? Hell, at that point the bastards have taken over. And America would truly become a fascist state.

Kinda scary, Eh?

Dave

Grumpy 12-17-2009 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStreak (Post 12411)

This is the "unwarranted influence" that I worry about. "Influence"? Hell, at that point the bastards have taken over. And America would truly become a fascist state.

Kinda scary, Eh?

Dave

Aint that what we got today ? :p

BlueStreak 12-17-2009 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy (Post 12412)
Aint that what we got today ? :p
Well, kinda, yes. The government still has regulatory power at present, as corrupt as it may be. They (The Corporatocracy) bitches about it constantly.

I'm waiting for the day it becomes blatant. The day a "private army" just marches off to war totally without the consent, or even at the protest, of Congress and/or the President. And I don't think it's much of a stretch to see that coming. Haven't we already seen "private contractors" acting without consulting the regular military in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I'm sorry, but when it comes to something as important as fighting a war, I believe privatization is a terrible mistake. Private contractors should be limited to the manufacture of hardware and other "non-combatant" functions, PERIOD. I'm all for "...a well regulated militia...", Grumpy. But I am totally against one that grows a mind of it's own and starts carrying out acts of war without the knowledge or consent of our elected officials.

Have a Great Day!

Dave

Boreas 12-17-2009 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStreak (Post 12425)
Well, kinda, yes. The government still has regulatory power at present, as corrupt as it may be. They (The Corporatocracy) bitches about it constantly.
The regulatory power of the government has been seriously degraded in recent decades. When you have lobbyists "consulting" with Congress to draft legislation there's not much likelihood of meaningful regulation. When you have former industry executives in charge of regulatory agencies there's not much chance of legitimate enforcement of such regulation as exists.

Quote:
I'm waiting for the day it becomes blatant. The day a "private army" just marches off to war totally without the consent, or even at the protest, of Congress and/or the President. And I don't think it's much of a stretch to see that coming. Haven't we already seen "private contractors" acting without consulting the regular military in Iraq and Afghanistan?
We've already seen Blackwater patrolling the streets of New Orleans after "Hurricane Corrina". It has been alleged that they were even using deadly force.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but when it comes to something as important as fighting a war, I believe privatization is a terrible mistake. Private contractors should be limited to the manufacture of hardware and other "non-combatant" functions, PERIOD.
I think security functions might be okay, things like personal security for State Department personnel or embassy guards, but no tactical stuff at all.

Quote:
I'm all for "...a well regulated militia...", Grumpy. But I am totally against one that grows a mind of it's own and starts carrying out acts of war without the knowledge or consent of our elected officials.
Well, the thing is, we're not dealing with a militia at all, well-regulated or otherwise. What we have with Xe, Custer-Battles, Dynecorp and the lot are mercenaries, plain and simple.

John

piece-itpete 12-17-2009 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStreak (Post 12411)
Yep. Isn't that the tune Americas right wing marches to, the privatization of EVERYTHING?
Apparently the current Dems are too.

Pete

Grumpy 12-17-2009 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12443)
Apparently the current Dems are too.

Pete
X 11,000,000,000,000

Fast_Eddie 12-17-2009 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12443)
Apparently the current Dems are too.

Pete
Seriously? What do you expect them to do? Wave a magic wand?

I can see it now "you're all just going to have to pay more taxes because the Republicans screwed it all up". True enough, but probably not going to get anyone elected.

piece-itpete 12-17-2009 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie (Post 12446)
Seriously? What do you expect them to do? Wave a magic wand?
Hire even more mercenaries?

Pete

Grumpy 12-17-2009 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12448)
Hire even more mercenaries?

Pete

I'm available, and work cheap.

piece-itpete 12-17-2009 03:40 PM
Yes, but how's your torturing skills? :)

Pete

Boreas 12-17-2009 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by BlueStreak
Yep. Isn't that the tune Americas right wing marches to, the privatization of EVERYTHING?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12443)
Apparently the current Dems are too.

Pete
Wh... what?!?!?! I thought you Righties thought the government was trying to take over the private sector, not the other way around. You guys can't have it both ways.

John

Grumpy 12-17-2009 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12451)
Yes, but how's your torturing skills? :)

Pete

Id say right on par with the Israeli. In other words good enuff to hang with the best of em :D

piece-itpete 12-17-2009 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas (Post 12452)
Wh... what?!?!?! I thought you Righties thought the government was trying to take over the private sector, not the other way around. You guys can't have it both ways.
John
It was the Dems who vilified Bush for the private contractors. Now Obaama expands the program. Once again, Obama's actions prove Bush was right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy (Post 12454)
Id say right on par with the Israeli. In other words good enuff to hang with the best of em :D
Hired. 1st, could you work over some bill collectors for me? :D

Pete

Grumpy 12-17-2009 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12455)
It was the Dems who vilified Bush for the private contractors. Now Obaama expands the program. Once again, Obama's actions prove Bush was right.




Hired. 1st, could you work over some bill collectors for me? :D

Pete
Sure that will be one trillion dollars. Oh wait thats Obama's bill. Yours will be much less.

Boreas 12-17-2009 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12455)
It was the Dems who vilified Bush for the private contractors. Now Obaama expands the program. Once again, Obama's actions prove Bush was right.
He really has no option beyond re-instituting the draft. We don't have the personnel available for the Afghanistan "surge" without using contractors. By thre way, many of them are Afghans so they're fighting for and in their own country.

I'm not with Obama on the more fundamental issue of the escalation in Afghanistan but if he's going to do it he has to use contractors. It's all he has available, thanks to Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

John

Charles 12-17-2009 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas (Post 12461)
He really has no option beyond re-instituting the draft. We don't have the personnel available for the Afghanistan "surge" without using contractors. By thre way, many of them are Afghans so they're fighting for and in their own country.

I'm not with Obama on the more fundamental issue of the escalation in Afghanistan but if he's going to do it he has to use contractors. It's all he has available, thanks to Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

John
If we need more cannon fodder, the draft is a great thing.

What we need is more technicians, and private contractors provide them. At least that is what I understand. Along with the truck drivers.

Chas

Boreas 12-17-2009 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles (Post 12463)
If we need more cannon fodder, the draft is a great thing.
I'm not against the draft by any means. I was drafted and, although my 2 year hitch was plenty, I think my time in the service was well spent. I learned a lot about life and about people.

Quote:
What we need is more technicians, and private contractors provide them. At least that is what I understand. Along with the truck drivers.

Chas
Far from the total number of contractors are mercenaries. There are, as you say, technicians and truck drivers. There are also cooks and mess hall staff (read "KP") and lots of other things. Even among the paramilitary contractors like Xe there are clerical and administrative employees.

John

piece-itpete 12-18-2009 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas (Post 12461)
He really has no option beyond re-instituting the draft. We don't have the personnel available for the Afghanistan "surge" without using contractors. By thre way, many of them are Afghans so they're fighting for and in their own country.

I'm not with Obama on the more fundamental issue of the escalation in Afghanistan but if he's going to do it he has to use contractors. It's all he has available, thanks to Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

John
(clears throat) THE DEMS CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT.

That had to come out :)

As the armed forces become more specialized (it's unlikely a cook will go out on patrol) it makes sense to use contractors. Plus the lifetime bennies for vets are VERY expensive. And Cheney needs the money. Thanks Obama! ;)

Pete

merrylander 12-18-2009 07:39 AM
Relax everyone Congress has not voted the funds for the surge as yet.

piece-itpete 12-18-2009 09:54 AM
Any bets?

$100 on funds pass.

Pete

BlueStreak 12-18-2009 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12511)
Any bets?

$100 on funds pass.

Pete
Keep your money. You might be needing it soon.

Boreas 12-18-2009 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-itpete (Post 12498)
(clears throat) THE DEMS CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT.
Nobody watching the current freak show going on in Washington can possibly believe that. Industry controls the government.

Quote:
As the armed forces become more specialized (it's unlikely a cook will go out on patrol) it makes sense to use contractors.
This argument doesn't hold water. This isn't about cooks going out on patrol. (Most cooks are contractors these days anyway.) It's about whether you have a GI on patrol, answerable to the chain of command and the UCMJ, or a mercenary, answerable to a BoD composed of private individuals interested in their bottom line.

Yes, combat is becoming far more "high tech" and specialized but that's no reason to use mercs. Where do you think they got their training? They were trained during periods of military service in the US and other countries.

Some of these guys we're using come from very unsavory backgrounds. The one that sticks in my mind is South Africa during apartheid. A lot of South African "Special Ops" people ended up as mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan. In South Africa they were used basically as torturers and death squads operating against anti-apartheid organizations like the ANC and INCATA.

John

Boreas 12-18-2009 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander (Post 12500)
Relax everyone Congress has not voted the funds for the surge as yet.

Pelosi says she's not going to "whip" her caucus to support funding a war they don't support. She says the Administration will have to do that on their own.

John

Charles 12-19-2009 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas (Post 12529)
Nobody watching the current freak show going on in Washington can possibly believe that. Industry controls the government.



This argument doesn't hold water. This isn't about cooks going out on patrol. (Most cooks are contractors these days anyway.) It's about whether you have a GI on patrol, answerable to the chain of command and the UCMJ, or a mercenary, answerable to a BoD composed of private individuals interested in their bottom line.

Yes, combat is becoming far more "high tech" and specialized but that's no reason to use mercs. Where do you think they got their training? They were trained during periods of military service in the US and other countries.

Some of these guys we're using come from very unsavory backgrounds. The one that sticks in my mind is South Africa during apartheid. A lot of South African "Special Ops" people ended up as mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan. In South Africa they were used basically as torturers and death squads operating against anti-apartheid organizations like the ANC and INCATA.

John
You're right about the cooks being contractors...I noticed that when I was working at Bergstrom those flyboys had it pretty good.

And you can cuss the contractors all you want, but those mini skirted Oriental barmaid "contractors" that worked at the NCO club would leave you with drool running down the front of your shirt.

Always wondered what it was like at the Officers Club, but I had better sense than to try to get in there.

Chas


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