I think they're lying. And I think they know it.
 

This article is old, but I believe still relevant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/bu...view.html?_r=1

The crux of it is that, at least in December 2005, we're on the low end of the Laffer curve and that lowering taxes any more will only lower revenue. Every member of Congress surely knows this and yet I've not heard a single one mention it. Not only that, I've heard a hoard of them (all with the same letter after their name) scream that taxes are too high. Indeed there is a movement by citizens to drive taxes even lower and thus bankrupt our country.

Okay, the rank and file at the Teabagger Convention probably doesn't know. They just don't like taxes. But the folks organizing these things do know. And they're lying. Telling people what they want to hear in exchange for votes, even though they know it is running the country into the ground.

Just my thoughts.

Ed

By the way- I don't like taxes either. But I love America. As they say, freedom isn't free.

The Rs have an issue that they can run on 'til the cows come home, just like abortion, and the Ds are too chickenshit to risk losing the votes of people who don't vote for them anyway.

In that lost 8 minutes of mine which you were wise enough not to watch a lady waiting at Palin's book signing said that Palin would "Clean up the spending, stop the spending."

When asked what were some examples of spending she'd like to see stopped, she said, "All of it. All of it."

Brilliant.

John

I've asked the same question here over and over. Nothing.

Ironically, that woman's answer is the same as Palin's answer to what she reads.

Sounds about right.

Dave

Sarah sure did not mind spending the lower 48's taxes on that road to nowhere. Nor did she object to getting more back from the feds than they paid in.

You could always move to the Western European Socialist country of your choosing and pay @29% in national income tax and an additional VAT of 20%. That is of course after you pay property taxes where they apply and then put gas in your Hybrid at $5-6 per gallon equivalent.

Or... Just hang around for a spell. Pelosi is working on that as we speak. Your wish is just a few bills away.

RC

Huh. Don't recall wishing for anything other than what's best for America. Reagan told me the Laugher curve was the be-all-end-all and we should shift our entire economic model because of it. Okay, I'm game Ronnie. What I do object to is people knowingly lying. We started this whole "lower taxes" deal with the idea that it would raise more money for the government and get us out of debt. Well, do we still want to do that or not? Is the Lafer curve wrong now if it says we need to raise taxes becuase that's what's best for America? Are we too greedy to do that? Just give me mine and to Hell with America? Just lower taxes and the concequences be damned?

Lowering taxes didn't work. If we care about America, it's time to stop digging. Raise taxes. Pay the bills.

Extra credit- find the Clinton administration on the chart above.

"Love it or leave it" is alive and well here I see. You know, if you Righties would open your eyes you'd see that some other countries have some things worth emulating.

You might also do well to remember what that "Good Ol' Yankee Ingenuity" actually was, (emphasis on "was"). It was the ability to take what was best from any source and craft a unique solution that was better than any of its predecessors. We don't do that any more. We're so besotted by the notion of "American Exceptionalism" that we believe there's no better way to do anything other than the "way we've always done it".

I wish we would take a few pages from the way some European countries handle the social contract but nothing has transpired to give me any hope of that. All you have to do is look at the pig's breakfast that's likely to be foisted on us as "Health Care Reform" to see just how far from a social democracy we are and how close to a corporatocracy.

John

Let's see, the exponential growth in the national debt began in the Reagan years, continued during the Bush Sr. years, leveled out during the Clinton years, and accelerated to rocket speed during the Dub years. So all these years that the GOP has tried to label the Democrats as tax and spend, it was really a compliment. The Democrats paid for what they bought; the GOP spent more, but they put it on a credit card. Which one of those paths is fiscally responsible?

Not only did the Dub administration spend outlandishly on an unnecessary war, they took the resources away from a more justifiable war in Afghanistan, at a time when we were close to getting Osama Bin Laden, which means it will cost this administration considerably more to finish the job there. And now the GOP is going to do everything it can to keep the current administration from cleaning up the mess.

They must be wearing asbestos underwear, because their pants are on fire.

Regards,

D-Ray

The thing I find astonishing is that Clinton didn't really get a handle on it until his second term when the shit really hit the fan. How that man got anything accomplished with the impeachment and Ken Starr and the Republican Congress digging into every aspect of his personal and professional life beggers belief.

John

We do need health care reform but I have not seen a palatable solution provided by either party yet. As far as whats being currently presented, one would have to assume that even the current admin. and congress doesn't appear to like it much as they have excluded themselves from the need to participate.

I understand that Germany's national health care program is starting to quake under the weight of it all. It's the oldest system of it's kind from what I have read.

RC

I don't like what's being put forward either. I hesitate to say "by either party" because it's clear that the Republicans have no interest in effecting changes that aren't intended to benefit the insurance industry. Democrats, on the other hand, seem to want to make real improvements to our health care system but are too beholden to the health care monopoly to take things very far.

I hadn't heard that. In any event, I'd want to hear it from multiple independent sources. The industry has been spreading false doom and gloom scenarios about other country's health care programs ever since this whole thing started. There's a lot of deliberate misinformation out there.

John

I don't see how any supporter of universal health care can possibly support the current legislation. From what I can gather all the present legislation does is demand that all those that can afford health insurance be obliged to buy it in return for dropping some pre existing conditions exclusions.

BINGO!

Tennessee has been talking about it and has made a couple good points. They reminding folks of how fast the TN-Care system went to hell. They said anytime it is easy for folks to get free health insurance, more folks will lean towards the free rather than providing for themselves. Folks that got on TN-Care started going to the ER when they couldn't see their regular doctor the moment they wanted to see him, and when it's not an emergency it hurts the hell out of the system. Folks that got on TN-Care also started rushing to the doctor anytime they, or their child got a little sniffle that'd gone away in a day or two without the need to see a doctor.

Folks paying for their own insurance that have to spend their own money for a copay each doctor visit are far less likely to waste money over a little sniffle.

The thing about using the emergency room as your primary health care provider is that the uninsured do that too. Except they do it every time. At least with TN-Care folks could see their plan doctor some of the time. Also, I don't see a problem with people erring on the side of caution and seeing a doctor when it might not be necessary. That's far better than not seeing a doctor when it is necessary.

But you see , none of the health care plans before Congress include anything in the way of free health care beyond Medicaid which already exists as a means tested program. The "Public Option" you hear about isn't free and it isn't "government health care". It's also a means tested program with private health care provided through private insurance companies.

John

Otherwise know as a get rich quick scheme.

Well, I'm always up to talk about health care reform, but I'm a little disappointed that our friends on the right haven't come to talk about my assertion. Teabaggers are out protesting historically low tax rates and calling for rates that would almost certainly doom the American economy. Not only that, they are being led by people who know this to be the case and are lying to them. Finally, history has shown that Democrats have indeed taken the debt issue seriously when Republicans have not.

The abuses in our MN Care program would make even your most liberal minded bleeding hearts snarl with anger. I am probably wrong about that but would like to think it would be the case. If people really knew about the abuses and the wasted hundreds of millions annually, their would be blood in the streets.

I don't need supporting documentation for that statement. My wife lives in the heart of the beast as lead nurse (RN) for a very large clinic/hospital.

She used to be very liberal in her politics, but the reality of it all has changed her opinions a tad. The truth of reality trumps blind ideology I guess.

RC

What can I say? Republican greed and corruption.

It's all back to St. Ronnie and the "nine most terrifying words in the English language": "We're from the government and we're here to help." When you have such a cynical view of government it's easy to permit yourself to pillage it for personal gain, from Halliburton to Abramov to "Duke" Cunningham the story's the same.

John

PS: Reality reinforces my "bleeding heart liberalism" every day.

Again I don't understand the conversion in this case.

Is everyone's wife an RN?

If I had any sense, I'd go back to school and become one myself. And I guarantee you, the sight of me walking the corridor with a rectal thermometer would be enough to convince most people that they were healthy enough to become lumberjacks!!!!

Chas

"This part I don't understand at all. Why would mismanagement or abuse of one system change a persons personal values. (which is essentially what politics is)"

"Again I don't understand the conversion in this case."




I know the both of you don't get it, I know you don't.

The required explanation would take to long and I fear it would fall on deaf ears anyway. I lack the patience for it.

I guess it just illustrates the vast differences in our thinking and how we process information.

RC

And where you don't need to pay $10,000 per year for health insurance. Where public transportation is so pervasive the hybrid will spend most of its life in the garage. When I once asked the governor why we could not do property taxes like the Germans do I was informed that would be counter to the State Constitution. There the tax is governed by the load you place on the infrastructure not the value of your land - over which you have no control.

Grassley and Hatch flat out lied about the Canadian system, not deliberate mis-information, they both lied and they know they were lying, and Hatch is a Bishop? Some Bishop.

So if people are abusing the system they are doing it with the collaboration of doctors and hospitals, it takes two to tango.

When the Conservative party instituted Single Payer in Canada things were in a pretty bad state. Hospitals were hiring nurses from third world countries because they did not want to pay decent salaries. I saw some of this first hand when my Dad died. Things changed for the better afterward, sure some people might go to the doctor with imaginary ailments, hypochondriacs will ever be with us - big deal.

Back around WW II times people whose taxes had built the schools and roads could find themselves at retirement with scarce enough to live on. They could get a pension from the government but the means test said you can't own your own home (typical right wing stupidity take away the home and give them a pension that just covers the rent). Many parents deeded the home over to their children and got the pension. Then in the need for money the children sold the house out from under them. Oh ye generation of vipers.

Finally wiser heads prevailed and the means test was eliminated, replace by income tax well above the value of the pension. Even now if all a person has is the basic pension, a supplement of $635 per month is available.

Oh yes, despite some of the other blatant lies you were told by our estimable senators, Canada has negligable debt.

Given our insane system the miracle is that government even works at all. Show me any other country that requires an incoming preident to make in excess of 8000 appointments (in the face of a recalcitrant Congress) and it is probably some corrupt dictatorship.

So there is John Q Civilservant trying to do his job and they change management - and direction - every four or eight years.

Then take that collection of imbeciles known as the Senate. One lone senator, old doc Coburn (who once said he was Senator Ensign's OB-Gyn - say what?) can hold up a bill designed to assist veterans from even being debated. One lone barking idiot in a nation of over 300 million people can block legislation from even being discussed, and you call this democracy?
Feh!

Yeah, you know, he takes care of Ensign's property.

John

I knew Ensign was a wussie, I guess just change one letter.:rolleyes:

People are abusing the system because they have been provided the means to do so. The free, unlimited health care for "those in need" in our state (very liberal) was underwritten by state legislature. We have people flocking to our state for handouts or all types because of it. Just a peek at the arrest record for a particular week of the month shows huge spikes in arrests of individuals from Illinois and Indiana for example. These multiple location "residents" show up to pick up their checks and go back home. Also estimated in the multiple millions. The subject gets broached periodically but is quickly swept under the rug. I don't even know where to begin with the medical aspect.

Our state rep. Nora Slawick (DFL district 55B) stopped by the house about three months ago. My wife and I listened quietly as she layed out her story and ask for our support. She got on to the subject of affordable state health care and mention how important it was to be on board with that. I had nothing to add. My wife smiled and told her that she was a RN and saw what was going on, on a daily basis on the state level and wanted to know how we would go about signing up for that program. Nora smiled a nervous smile, thanked us for our time (stepping backward while doing so), turned and walked away. That spoke volumes for me.

"...imaginary ailments, hypochondriacs will ever be with us - big deal."

If that were only the problem. With all due respect Rob, that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

I was watching C-SPAN a while back and listening to some House member pimp the National Health Care bill that was being paraded around at the time. He mentioned that part of the paying for it would be in recovering the 100's of millions in waste and fraud that they were all ready aware of in Medicare/medicare. Recovering??? If this has been apparent common knowledge, why has it not been taken care of already. We are dealing with fools and incompetents. Continuing to put more money and control in their hands is a bit of a concern for me.

RC

As I said there is collaboration, or rather collusion, that is allowing this to happen. There is nothing "liberal" about a thief or the people who aid and abet.

Systems can be run honestly, if the State legislature does not wish to do so throw them out.

Being seasoned citizens we are bombarded with the medicare thieves who absolutely guarantee us a power chair even if our insurance and medicare turn us down. Oh, and we don't need to worry about the paperwork, they will take care of it, sure because they don't want us to see what a scam they are running.

When Florence fell down the stairs because her knee gave out we approached the big name firm that advertises chirlifts - first estimate $17,000. When he saw to look on my face he "called the home office" - it came down to $13,500.

I got online and found excellent chairlifts for - first estimate $6,500. They shipped even before they got our check, and when they found it was cash and not credit card the price dropped to $6,000. There are more predatory people out their preying on seniors because they know they can screw the government in the process. Face it, like Franklin surmised, Constitutional government would work very well until we bacame so corrupt that we need a despot. There are also the honest ones like Summit who built our chairlifts. Relative piece of cake to install and the usual charge is $400 per lift, if I was younger I would become an installer, easy money.

Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess. The government desrves blame for having put the fox in charge of the chicken house. I guess all this crap about how we are a Christian country lulled them into believing everyone would obey the ten commandments, they forgot the eleventh commandment.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

Words of wise wisdom Rob :)

Pete

If we got rid of every system that was abused we'd have little left. Correction: we'd have nothing left. It's like people who argue that some law or other should be repealed because "people will do it anyway". Well people kill people anyway, but I'm not about to make murder legal. Nor am I prepared to give up on making health care more accessable due to the fact that some will abuse it.

Great post.

When my Mothers Alzheimers became unmanageable for the family, we went in search of a "nursing home". We went and looked at some that ranged from scary to lavish. Well, of course we weren't about to put mom in a place that we regarded as "scary" just because it was cheap. And there was no sense in putting her in a palace either. (Her mind was gone, most of the time she thought she was in the old house, it was the 1940s/50s/60s, and we were still little kids.) Point is, a decent, yet conservative "senior care facilty" was $6,500 a month. One place we looked at was over $20,000 A MONTH! Some were as low as $3,000 a month, but I wouldn't trust them with my dog, let alone my mother. Now, Medicaid payed the lions share of that $6,500, and my father paid the rest out of his Union pension.

Point is this; I had no idea just how much money is tied up in senior care, until we went through this with my Mom. And just how incredibly expensive everything is.

Dave

Hundreds of millions in waste- let's examine that for a minute.

Federal Budget 2010 $3.55 Trillion.

Okay, how much is "hundreds of millions"? Let's say, what, seven hundred million. That's a big number.

700,000,000/3,550,000,000,000 = about 1.9

Not saying it doesn't matter. But if we refuse to make progress on health care due to 1.9% of the federal budget being "wasted" I think we're making a mistake. That's assuming the undocumented claim of "hundreds of millions" is accurate which it almost certainly isn't. I'm not saying we don't deal with it. Get the system in place and then work on any abuses we can. But to pass the opportunity over what in the scheme of things is so little would be a mistake.

You've all heard my rant on this before. If we want to cut spending there are only three meaningfull places to look. About 75% of the federal budget is Medicade/Medicare, Social Security and Millitary. You'll never get elected if you even hint that you would even look at possibly, maybe suggest that we should cut SS or MM. So there's only one answer. This isn't hard.

Actually, the health care reform plan is the first thing I've ever heard them talk about that starts to address any of the big three expenses. If they really succeed in making medical care less expensive it would have a substantial impact on MM.

Or we could do the responsible thing and quit whining about how much everything is and start paying our bills. When I go to Wal-Mart and buy a big screen TV, they don't much care if I think they paid too much for a Union trucker to ship the thing. They pretty much want me to pay for all of it. And I would, had I ever been to a Wal-Mart and if I owned a big screen TV. We need to run the country the same way. No money? No war.

"Corruption does not wear a liberal or conservative label, its sole motive is greed, why do you think we are in this mess. The government desrves blame for having put the fox in charge of the chicken house. I guess all this crap about how we are a Christian country lulled them into believing everyone would obey the ten commandments, they forgot the eleventh commandment.

No system is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."

Magnificent!

I would add, however, that what amazes me are the people that I know personally who think that corruption does "wear a liberal or conservative label", and that it is decidedly "liberal". This due in no small part to the "Christian country" nonsense to which you make reference. And, where, pray tell, does that come from?:D

Dave

Our Health insurance that we pay dearly for is an pales in comparison to MN Care.

That said, my parents now once again (this time of the year) fall into the "doughnut hole" created by Bush and the pharmaceutical companys. My 76 yr old mothers medications are mind numbingly expensive. It saddens me to see hard working people like my parents being screwed over by a system they have spent their whole lives paying into. I also have sympathy for others that have been screwed over by a system that has created generational "poverty" and entitlements to perpetuate it.

"Our" generous social programs have been more instrumental in destroying generations that helping them I fear. It's a win/win for them (politicians). It allows them to wave the banner of compassion and at the same time, lock in votes by a constituency that has no other recourse than to vote handout.

They will have us all there eventually. With the exception of the money and power elite of course. Contrary to popular opinion here, the money and power elite reside on both sides of the tarnished coin.

RC

Lordy lordy. Here I studiously avoided reference to the Christian comment, but the Christians that designed our government were far more skeptical of government power than just about anyone alive today.

Increased government? Health care is what 17-19% of the economy? Just say no.

Pete

Which Christians are those?

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

There are loads and loads more. Got these from the first thing that popped up on a google search. Imagine someone who said some of these things running for office today. Our Founding Fathers couldn't get elected. Seems they were far more skeptical about God too.

Take care,

Ed