More lunatics with AR15s.
 

In Portland, Oregon this time. Two innocents dead when a deranged shooter goes into a shopping mall with an AR15 and starts killing holiday shoppers. This sick individual was wearing a hocky mask and all black military garb.

When will we ever learn? Let's re-instate the Assualt Weapons Ban.:(

I'm sure that a lot of you know, I don't want to see guns banned entirely but when is enough, enough?

Why is America number one in gun ownership? The figure is 88 guns per 100 people and the closest place is Yemen at 53 guns per 100 people. :confused:

As a happy gun owner who would like the nut jobs out of the picture. Be glad if adults would tackle this problem. But the gun lobby will never allow it!


Barney

I agree, Barney. It isn't the sane people who do these horrific crimes. I'm not a gun owner personally but I respect the second amendment and see it's purpose in keeping the government officials on the straight and narrow in respect of our rights.
Where we get off track is with regard to military grade weapons such as the AR15 and the like. I don't believe they should be out there for public consumption.
I don't see a dichotomy in restricting military grade weaponry. As it turns out the shooter in Oregon stole the AR15 from a friend but still, why does anyone need to have a civvie version of an M16? I don't get it.

I'm surprised Fox hasn't declared him a lefty and claimed the "War on Christmas" has turned violent.;)

Not to sound callous, but an assault weapons ban wouldn't have done a darned thing.

My heart goes out to those families affected.

Pete

You don't actually think FOX would cover that, do you? The NRA would be very angry.

John

You are right...but it would perhaps be a symbolic measure and perhaps impact the flow of guns going to Mexico from here?

The body count in one isolated instance of gun violence is irrelevant. The availability of assault weapons and/or high capacity magazines increases the potential of nuts like this guy for killing large numbers of people in a short space of time.

John

The thing about weapons is that they have no half-life. Bury an M-16 in your back yard and 200 years later someone could dig it up, oil the thing, find the ammo and it is back in business. That is why they do not want to arm the Syrian rebels in case an Al-Quada faction gets those shoulder rocket launchers and decides to target an Airline. We should invent weapons that dissolve after a certain amount of time.....

I get you guys, but find it interesting that the thought of them is the problem.

Btw, the small outfits down south may buy guns from Pops Gun Shack, but the big guys buy their guns off the world arms market.

Pete

I suppose there is no way he could have killed two people with a handgun. It isn't uncommon for semi-auto pistols such as the Beretta 90 or the Smith & Wesson M&P to hold 15 or 17 rounds plus. They are a lot easier to conceal than an assault rifle also.

Pete...we are the world arms market...

Yeah, we're pumping out AK 47s like there is no tomorrow.:rolleyes:

From WIKI...

Production outside of the Soviet Union/Russia

Military variants only. Includes new designs substantially derived from the Kalashnikov.
Country Variant(s)
Albania
Automatiku Shqiptar model 56 (ASH-78 Tip-1) Albanian Automatic Assault Rifle Model 56 Type-1 [Made in Poliçan Arsenal] (Straight forward copy of Type 56, which in turn is a clone of the Soviet AKM rifle)
Automatiku Shqiptar Tipi 1982 (ASH-82) Albanian Automatic Assault Rifle Type 1982 [Made in Poliçan Arsenal] (Straight forward copy of AKMS)
Automatiku Shqiptar model 56 (ASH-78 Tip-2) Albanian Light Machine Gun [Made in Poliçan Arsenal] (Straight forward copy of RPK)
Automatiku Shqiptar model 56 (ASH-78 Tip-3) Albanian Automatic Hybrid Rifle Model 56 Type-3 [Made in Poliçan Arsenal] (Hybrid rifle for multi-purpose roles mainly Marksman rifle with secondary assault rifle and grenade launcher capability)
Other unknown variants.
Several other unnamed & unidentified versions of the AKMS have been produce mainly with short barrels similar to the Soviet AKS-74U mainly for special forces, Tank & Armoured crew also for Helicopter pilots and police.
There have also been modifications and fresh production of heavily modified ASh-82 (AKMS) with SOPMOD accessories, mainly for Albania's special forces RENEA & exports.
Bangladesh Chinese Type 56
Bulgaria AKK (Type 3 AK-47), AKKS (Type 3 with side-folding buttstock)
AKKMS (AKMS) AKKN-47 (fittings for NPSU night sights)
AK-47M1 (Type 3 with black polymer furniture)
AK-47MA1/AR-M1 (same as -M1, but in 5.56 mm NATO)
AKS-47M1 (AKMS in 5.56x45mm NATO), AKS-47MA1 (same as AKS-47M1, but semi-automatic only)
AKS-47S (AK-47M1, short version, with East German folding stock, laser aiming device)
AKS-47UF (short version of -M1, Russian folding stock), AR-SF (same as −47UF, but 5.56 mm NATO)
AKS-93SM6 (similar to −47M1, cannot use grenade launcher)
RKKS, AKT-47 (.22 rimfire training rifle)
BARR-101 (semi-automatic-only version with a 5-round magazine)
Cambodia Chinese Type 56, Soviet AK-47, and AKM
People's Republic of China Type 56
German Democratic Republic MPi-K (AK-47), MPi-KS (AKS), MPi-KM (AKM), MPi-KMS-72 (AKMS), KK-MPi Mod.69 (.22-Lr select-fire trainer);
Egypt AK-47, Misr assault rifle (AKM), Maadi.
Ethiopia AK-47, AK-103 (manufactured locally at the State-run Gafat Armament Engineering Complex as the Et-97/1[62])
Hungary AK-55 (domestic manufacture of the 2nd Model AK-47)AK-63D/E (AMM/AMMSz), AKM-63, AMD-65, AMP-69, NGM-81(AK-63 in 5.56mm NATO)
Iraq Tabuk Sniper Rifle, Tabuk Assault Rifle (with fixed or underfolding stock, outright clones of Yugoslavian M70 rifles series), Tabuk Short Assault Rifle
India Trichy Assault Rifle 7.62 mm, manufactured by Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli of Ordnance Factories Board[63]
Iran KLS (AK47), KLF (AKS), KLT (AKMS)
Israel IMI Galil
Finland RK 62, RK 95 TP
Macedonia M60
Nigeria Produced by the Defence Industries Corporation of Nigeria as OBJ-006[64][65]
North Korea Type 58A (Type 3 AK-47), Type 58B (stamped steel folding stock), Type 68A (AKM-47) Type 68B (AKMS), Type 88 (AKS-74)[66][67]
Pakistan Reverse engineered by hand and machine in Pakistan's highland areas near the border of Afghanistan; more recently the Pakistan Ordnance Factories started the manufacture of an AK47/AKM clone called PK-10[68]
Philippines ARMSCOR MAK22 and MAK22FS

[69]
Poland pmK/kbk AK (name has changed from pmK – "pistolet maszynowy Kałasznikowa", Kalashnikov SMG to the kbk AK – "karabinek AK", Kalashnikov Carbine in mid-1960s) (AK-47), kbkg wz. 1960, kbk AKM (AKM), kbk AKMS (AKMS), kbk wz. 1988 Tantal based on the 7.62 mm kbk AKMS wz. 81, kbs wz. 1996 Beryl
Romania PM md. 63 (AKM), PM md. 65 (AKMS), PM md. 90 (AKMS), collectively exported under the umbrella name AIM or AIMS, Draco Pistol 7.62X39mm
PA md. 86 (AK-74), exported as the AIMS-74
PM md. 90 short barrel, PA md. 86 short barrel, exported as the AIMR
Serbia M92, M21, M70
South Africa R4 assault rifle
Sudan MAZ,[70] based on the Type 56
Vietnam Chinese Type 56, Soviet AK-47, AK-74, AK-108 and AKM
Venezuela License granted, factory under construction[71]
Yugoslavia M60, M64 (AK-47 with longer barrel), M64A (grenade launcher), M64B (M64 w/ folding stock), M66, M70, M70A, M70B1, M70AB2, M76, M77, M-21

Certainly more have been produced elsewhere; but the above list represents known producers and is limited to only military variants. An updated AK-47 design is still produced in Russia.

I don't seem to find U.S.A. in there anywhere.

wtf?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry

Which is why I mentioned a ban on high capacity magazines as well as one on assault weapons.

I like weapons. I've been gun owner, a hunter and competitive shooter in the past but the sorts of weapons and magazines we're talking about here are designed to kill large numbers of people as quickly and efficiently as possible. There is no sane reason for allowing them in civilian hands and little reason to permit their use in law enforcement other than the fact that the bad guys have them too.

John

Jesus, ever heard of a link?!?!?

What's your point anyway?

John

One could kill 2 people with a pocket knife.

The arms trade is large, and the US plays a big part:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/143000...rms3_graph.gif

but it's besides the point. All an assault weapons ban here would do is keep us from owning them. Anyone with money (like Mexican cartels) could still find containers of them on the world market.

Pete

Here is the link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

This paragraph, from that link, explains the point I was making...

"The original AK-47 was one of the first true "assault rifles" to be manufactured, after the original Sturmgewehr 44.[9][10] Even after six decades the model and its variants remain the most widely used and popular assault rifles in the world because of their durability, low production cost, and ease of use. It has been manufactured in many countries and has seen service with armed forces as well as irregular forces worldwide. The AK-47 was the basis for developing many other types of individual and crew-served firearms. More AK-type rifles have been produced than all other assault rifles combined."

Seems Ice has found a link that includes all kinds of other weapons. I suspect that some of those are high dollar systems that skew the results when total money involved is considered the bench mark.

Pete found something too. Just for the sake of clarity, exactly what is meant by "Small arms"? How "big" is it before it is no longer a small arm?

I found this...

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/weapo...finitions.html

I'm still not getting the point that you and Pete are trying to make, or even if you're trying to make the same point. Are you saying that there are so many assault weapons out there that it's pointless to try to regulate them? Are you saying that there are so many out there in the hands of the "bad guys" that it's important that the "good guys" have them too?

You guys seem to be forgetting exactly who it is that commits these terrible crimes with assault weapons. It's not Mexican drug lords. It's not al Qaeda fighters. It's not "urban" gang bangers. It's "normal people", just like you. ;)

Frankly, I think that the large numbers of assault weapons in circulation is PRECISELY why they need to be banned.

John

I'll let Pete speak for himself. My point in post # 19 was that both Pete and Ice found links that seem to dispute the link that I found. I can accept the fact that I may be wrong wrt the total amount of money different nations have involved. I was working from the point of the thread being about what the title suggested, AR 15s and like weapons.

(My copy and paste (post # 13) is a pain to try and read. The WIKI article is much easier to sort out.)

They will remain in circulation, unless we are going to outlaw armies.

Look at Breivik. If you want one you will get one.

Thank God these lunatics are usually incompetent.

Interesting. Too bad there's not a standard. How can one compare apples to apples? Btw I wasn't disputing what you said, just expanding on the subject.

This topic came about regarding a mention about the Mexican cartels.

Me, I've decided on this:

http://www.thegunmuseum.com/jmdavis2...Volley-Gun.jpg

Pete

By the way, when reading this graph, ignore the bars and concentrate on the $$$. The number scale in the chart is totally whacked out.

The annual sales of the US are $1.2 billion. Germany is #2 at $384 million. The combined sales of the other 14 countries listed in the chart is $1.1 billion, slightly less than the sales by the US alone.

John

I noticed that, I suspect it's so it could fit in a sized box :)

Not surpising though, considering the proportionate size of our military. And population. I suspect that gap would narrow if the EU was counted in total.

JI, I came across this statement:

"The World Bank now estimates that out of a total of around 500 million firearms in circulation around the world today, around a fifth are Kalashnikovs - and something like 75 million are AK-47s or counterfeit knock-offs."

http://www.gizmag.com/kalashnikov-ak-47/12306/

Pete

It's a good thing Mikhail and John Browning didn't team up and decide to do the rest of us in!:D

These are exports, Pete. The only connection to our military's size is in the sale of surplus (worn out) weapons.

[QUOTE]And population.

China and India have greater populations. China sells $27 million. India isn't even in the top 15.

Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic, the UK, Sweden, Poland, Belgium and Italy are already on the list individually.

Try again, Pete.

John

The size of the military means our production of arms is greater. It makes perfect sense we would sell more on the open market.

Pete

Why? Having the world's most expensive army as a captive customer isn't enough for the US arms manufacturers?

John

Why should it be? Plus we are the largest individual comsumer market.

Pete

That just fills me with pride!

http://epicdemotivational.com/wp-con...-hell-yeah.jpg

It's all really very simple.
More guns = more death and injury from guns.

Boreas I thought of that! :D

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ricapansag.jpg

:)

Pete

Yeah, that's one large individual consumer, there. :D

John

I'm just glad he and that one in Aurora didn't have the sense to use an AK47, those fuckers don't jam and the body count would be much higher. So much for American exceptionalism in manufacturing...

Besides all that, if you like guns and the second amendment protections I would think that y'all would want to clean up your own mess before us lefty liberals have to do it for you. You won't even be able to buy an airsoft rifle if my more radical brothers and sisters get involved in this. You'll be down in your basements making muzzle loading smoothbores if you want firearms.

Just a little polite advice because every time some dickwad gets his hands on a gun and decides they want to go out in a blaze of glory? You are that much closer to having all of those plastic, jam prone, POS M16's run through a recycling facility and that's only the tip of the camel's nose!

I'll repeat for clarities sake, clean it up before we have to because there's are a lot of people that don't want you to own guns at all. There are even some that wouldn't mind prying them out of your cold dead hands if that's what it takes. Grow the fuck up, be responsible gun owners and tell LaPierre to shut his trap.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

It just so happens the more guns and ammo one can sneak into the mall the more one can kill.

I can't recall the last time someone took out over 70 people in under five minutes with a wiffle ball bat.;)

Regards,
Dave

Here's what I don't get:

The defeatist stance on guns is that it makes no sense to control them because there are too many here already to effectively make a difference.

Gotcha.

But the same folks believe we can do something on immigration that doesn't include a form of amnesty?

If there's too many guns to for an administrative solution involving their removal, there are too many people...

It just shows how Republican radicalism is wack on both issues.

Gee, Zeke, what's so hard to understand..... Republican radicals just want what they want regardless of how illogical the reasoning is.
Besides, if we took away their guns, how would they ever deal with illegal immigrants? We all know the only solution is to kill them as they cross the border.

Makes sense to me I guess. If making guns illegal will get guns off the streets and away from criminals maybe we ought to make cocaine, heroin, and meth illegal too!

Don't forget these are the same people who think they need their own AK47 so that they and their buddies can get Red Dawn on the US Army's ass when ZOG takes over.

John

All that is needed to defend ones home is a shotgun. Assault weapons and high capacity magazines are just toys for big boys who want to have fun. Rationalize the need to have them with reasons only they believe to be true.


Why is it a sin to want control over a lethal weapon that causes so much damage? Even something like requiring a license or registration is seen as an infringement on ones Rights. How so do we not strive to limit weapons mainly nuclear and chemical for being developed by other countries. If the gun debate were to be an honest one then why not allow every country to have any weapon they feel the need for? This would make the world a safer place right?




Barney